ECT Is God Moral?

Is God Moral?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 96.2%
  • No

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
Ok, Adam was created in God's image, right?

No, not the first Adam formed from the earth.



That means His morality was perfect, right?

I see you capitalized His, which means you think that Adam was the image of God instead of Christ.






What he did not posses however was God's incorruptability.

That's right only Jesus was given the Spirit without measure.




The same as the angels did not posses it. Lucifer's perfect morality was corrupted and the same goes for the rest of the angels that fell with him. They all had perfect morality having been created by God but they did not posses His incorruptability and so fell. All I have done here is to 're-word my first post.


So are you now saying Lucifer and the angels were created in God's image?

If you believe that Adam's morality remained perfect after his fall then you believe in partial fall not a complete one. However, I'm interested to know what you think. Would you care to enlighten me?

Pete ��

I'd be glad to, as soon as you clarify what you believe Adam's morality was.
 
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1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
No, he won't.


I have a question for you..


When you say "perfectly moral" do you mean "morally perfect"?

If so, then yes, Adam was in fact morally perfect before he ate of the Tree.

To say someone is moral is to say that the terms "good" and "evil" apply to them in a meaningful way. In other words, when you say that someone is good, you are saying that their thoughts and actions have been consistent with a standard. This standard is what morality is. To accept the idea that one can be good or evil while rejecting the notion that they are moral is to commit a "Stolen Concept Fallacy"*.

And no, I do not think that Adam's fall was a result of some inherent moral deficiency. We have God's own testimony that His creation, including both Adam and Eve, were "very good". Adam fell because he chose to do so. He chose to learn good and evil via the tree rather than via a relationship with his Creator.

Resting in Him,
Clete


* The “stolen concept” fallacy, first identified by Ayn Rand, is the fallacy of using a concept while denying the validity of its genetic roots, i.e., of an earlier concept(s) on which it logically depends.

You're spouting a false concept derived from thinking Adam knew the difference between good and evil before he tasted either one. :wazzup:
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Is God moral?

Sounds like a simple enough question. I'm always amazed at the squirming it causes!

Please click "Yes" or "No" and then explain your answer.

Notice there are only two answers. That's on purpose.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Whose morality is He subject to? If any other than His own, how is He God? If His own then He is, by definition, moral (unless He can change).

The idea that there are only two answers is a bit limiting - in my opinion - because it implies that there is only two states (moral or immoral). Does the answer "no" necessitate God is immoral or could it (conceivably) allow for Him to be amoral? Transmoral? Supramoral?

The definition of morality needs to be examined, too. Is it moral for you or I to decide when someone should die? And how? Only in a narrow set of circumstances (capital punishment). Is it ever immoral for God to make that determination and take that action? If God doesn't lie, then is it moral of Him to send someone "strong delusion that they should believe a lie"? Or even send an evil spirit (as He did to Saul)? Is it moral for Him to command what men today would likely call genocide? Is God moral for asking Abraham to sacrifice his son? Is it moral for Him to do so even though He never intended for Abraham to go through with it? Is it moral for Him to allow the atrocities perpetrated by the likes of the Roman Empire and Nazi Germany to be unrestrained (at least for a time)?

But then the question that matters (it seems to me) is if He can be righteous and holy...and still not be considered moral...I don't see how that can be.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I'm not trying to have it both ways. Love is subjective per 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, but the molester isn't expressing love as determined by objective criteria. Feigned love is not love.



Love is clearly influenced by feelings, tastes or opinions.

Feigned love is influenced by feelings, tastes or opinions, too.

You are not discussing the same topic. That which is a matter of opinion or personal preferences is, by definition, amoral.

As I mentioned to you earlier, there are several different things one can be talking about when using the word love. What we are talking about in this thread is the kind of love that is essentially synonymous with righteousness and is concerned with acting in another's best interests.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 
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Dialogos

Well-known member
This is probably right in the way you mean it but you could be more careful with your wording. For example, God delegates authority to the governing official to punish criminals even to the point of executing them. And it is not unjust for a nation to go to war (i.e. to kill people and break things) in defense against a hostile nation. Nor is it immoral for me to kill another person in defense of myself or my family and in some cases my home and possessions.
Fair enough.

Consider this.

Is it moral for you to execute others for refusing to worship you?


Clete said:
As our Creator God does have the authority to change the rules which govern our behavior but that does not imply that God does so in some arbitrary or capricious or unjust manner.
Well said, I'm not arguing that God acts in an arbitrary, capricious or unjust manner. I'm arguing that God is not subject to the same standards of morality as His creation. In fact, I would argue that God is not subject to any moral standard outside His own character.

Therefore, when God says that He has done something, and we can't imagine how any human could do such a thing and not bring moral outrage upon themselves, we have to realize that God doesn't owe us any explanations.

That's basically the book of Job for you in a nutshell.

Clete said:
God does things for reasons that are consistent with a standard of morality that does not change and that gives meaning to the passages in Scripture that say God is righteous and just (same thing).
Yes, and God's creature are not reliable interpreters of that standard nor are we Arbiters of God's choices.

When we don't understand why God has done something, the righteous choice for the creation is to shut our mouths (Job 40:4-5) and realize that God's infinite morality is far too great to exhaustively comprehend for beings who have an average of 3 lbs of grey matter, of which we use only a percentage for rational thought.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Fair enough.

Consider this.

Is it moral for you to execute others for refusing to worship you?
Of course not.

I nearly didn't answer this. The question is irrelevant. One's position as it relates to authority and the privileges/or limitations thereof are part and parcel of what it means to be moral. In other words, any usurpation of proper authority is unjust and therefore immoral. The fact that God is the highest authority in existences make it impossible for God to usurp authority and thus makes this issue irrelevant when discussing whether God is moral.

Well said, I'm not arguing that God acts in an arbitrary, capricious or unjust manner. I'm arguing that God is not subject to the same standards of morality as His creation. In fact, I would argue that God is not subject to any moral standard outside His own character.
The last sentence contradicts the first. An act is either according to a standard or it is arbitrary.

Therefore, when God says that He has done something, and we can't imagine how any human could do such a thing and not bring moral outrage upon themselves, we have to realize that God doesn't owe us any explanations.
Your Calvinism is showing. God is not arbitrary! And if He were, He would not be just, by definition, no matter how you want to dress it up and to pretend otherwise.

You want to act like we humans are too stupid to understand what justice looks like but we aren't. If we were, God would not have bothered to write the Bible.

That's basically the book of Job for you in a nutshell.
No, it is not! The implication here is that God acted unjustly in the book of Job. This is blasphemy!

God is not unjust! He was not unjust to Job and if you think otherwise its because your doctrine has taught you otherwise, which is no surprise given your bent toward Calvinism.

This is definitely a subject for another thread. If you want to make a case for God acting unjustly in the book of Job, do it elsewhere, please.

Yes, and God's creature are not reliable interpreters of that standard nor are we Arbiters of God's choices.

When we don't understand why God has done something, the righteous choice for the creation is to shut our mouths (Job 40:4-5) and realize that God's infinite morality is far too great to exhaustively comprehend for beings who have an average of 3 lbs of grey matter, of which we use only a percentage for rational thought.
See what I mean? We humans are too stupid to figure out when we see justice and when we don't.

If you were correct here then when we say that God is good, what are we doing, guessing?

God cannot do evil and remain just. If God were to commit an act of evil, He would be evil. If this were not so then it would be meaningless to say that God is good. God is good because His actions are, in fact, righteous and just.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Okay, I think I've drug this out far enough.

I wrote the following a couple of years ago and some of the discussion so far in this thread has brought to my attention the need for me to incorporate some discussion about Euthyphro's Dilemma. I sort of wanted to figure out how to do that before posting it but I decided against it. My thought is that the discussion that follows might help me figure out just how it fits and how best to express it.

Some of what follows will be familiar to those of you who read my posts but this will be the first time I've put all this together in one post, at least on the regular forum.

I look forward to whatever rational feedback I can get!
Enjoy!

------------------------------

Our Moral God

The question of God's morality might, to some, seem a ridiculous question. To some the idea that God might not be moral is so ludicrous a thought that it would be down right blasphemous to even utter it aloud. After all, they say, if God is amoral (i.e. non-moral) then there can be no standard of right and wrong. But to those who take such a position it would come as quite a surprise to discover that there are at least as many, if not more, who think it an equally blasphemous thought to suggest that God is moral. After all, God is not subject to anyone or anything, including a moral standard - He is the standard! Right?

What is the source of such confusion? Well, there are many possible ways to answer that question, the most obvious of which has to do with the defining of terms and explaining in more detail what is meant when one says that God is, or is not, moral. But I don't believe that the problem can really be solved by a mere analysis of the semantics involved. This is not an issue of sophistry but rather it is a problem of philosophy. There is a more fundamentally philosophical issue involved here that I believe the vast majority of people on both sides of this issue do not understand nor do they even have any inkling of the issue's existence for that matter. The purpose of this short essay is to bring this issue to the attention of those on both sides of this issue and to explain how the God we serve is indeed moral but not because He follows or is subject to a set of rules nor because His nature defines morality, which is meaningless, but because God is rational.

In John chapter one we are taught not simply that Jesus is God, nor simply that God became a man, but that God the Son is the Logos of God. The New King James renders the passage this way...

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​
In this passage, everywhere you see the phrase, "the Word" the Greek word being used is "Logos". It is important to understand what this Greek word means because the use of "Word" as an English translation just doesn't convey what this passage is teaching. Logos conveys the idea of communication or more specifically, discourse and more specifically than that, rational discourse and/or rational argument. It is the word from which we get the suffix "-ology", as in Biology, Theology, Technology, Climatology, Cosmology, etc. So, the study of living things is "Biology" and the processes in a living creature are said to be biological. Notice bio-LOGICAL. To apply logic to the processes in living things, and thus to understand them, is biology, it is the logos of life. This is the meaning conveyed by "Logos".

So now, with this better understanding of the Greek, lets look at this passage again...

John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Now, there are some who object to such a translation thinking it improper to equate the living God with some abstract concept such as logic. But it should be noted that those who make such an objection never object to God being equated with the abstract concept of "Word", nor are they typically capable of offering any explanation as to what exactly it means to say "the Word as God". In other words, people who object on the grounds of referring to God as an abstraction, typically have no real problem with abstractions so long as the abstraction being used makes no sense.
This is, however, quite a new idea to most of those reading this and so let me just cite a couple of others who have used and acknowledge the validity of such a translation. Not that doing so helps to prove anything other than that this teaching is not unique to, nor can it's genesis be attributed to me. Indeed, this idea is as old as Christianity. As evidence of both its veracity and its antiquity, I offer the following quotations, the likes of which there are many...
"...this translation––may not only sound strange to devout ears, it may even sound obnoxious and offensive. But the shock only measures the devout person's distance from the language and thought of the Greek New Testament. Why it is offensive to call Christ Logic, when it does not offend to call him a word, is hard to explain. But such is often the case. Even Augustine, because he insisted that God is truth, has been subjected to the anti–intellectualistic accusation of "reducing" God to a proposition. At any rate, the strong intellectualism of the word Logos is seen in its several possible translations: to wit, computation, (financial) accounts, esteem, proportion and (mathematical) ratio, explanation, theory or argument, principle or law, reason, formula, debate, narrative, speech, deliberation, discussion, oracle, sentence, and wisdom.
Any translation of John 1:1 that obscures this emphasis on mind or reason is a bad translation. And if anyone complains that the idea of ratio or debate obscures the personality of the second person of the Trinity, he should alter his concept of personality. In the beginning, then, was Logic." - Gordon H. Clark; Against The World. The Trinity Review, 1978-1988. [God And Logic, Gordon H. Clark, p. 52-56] John W. Robbins, Editor.​

"For not only among the Greeks did reason (Logos) prevail to condemn these things through Socrates, but also among the Barbarians were they condemned by Reason (or the Word, the Logos) Himself, who took shape, and became man, and was called Jesus Christ;" Justin Martyr: The First Apology of Justin Chapter V​

Logos n. < Gr, a word: see Logic 1 Gr. Philos. reason, thought of as constituting the controlling principle of the universe and as being manifested by speech 2 Christian Theol. the eternal thought or word of God, made incarnate in Jesus Christ: John 1 - Webster's Dictionary​

Okay, so what's the point? God is Logic, Logic is God - so what? Well, lets suppose someone, for whatever reason (uh hem), rejects the Bible, Jesus Christ and the whole concept of God, a true atheist attempts to think through the issues of life and does so in such a way so as to stay as true to the principles of logic and sound reason is he possibly can. If, the Living God is Logic, what conclusions then should this person come too? Should they not be at least very similar to the teachings which are found in Scripture? If such an atheist existed and made such an attempt to use reason to formulate his philosophy of life, would he not be using God to formulate it, even if by accident and in ignorance?

Now, bearing that in mind I want to look at John 1 again. This time verse 4...

John 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.​

I find it interesting that the issue of life is brought up in the context of the Logos of God. It interests me because if one were to attempt to contemplate a rational basis for morality, life would have to be a necessary starting point because it is only to the living that issues of morality apply or matter. Ayn Rand, just the sort of atheist to which I've been referring, put it this way...
"...the first question is "Does man need values at all—and why?" According to Rand, "it is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible," and, "the fact that a living entity is, determines what it ought to do." Rand writes: "there is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence—and it pertains to a single class of entities: to living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not: it depends on a specific course of action... It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death..." The survival of the organism is the ultimate value to which all of the organism's activities are aimed, the end served by all of its lesser values." Ayn Rand (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 13 & 18 New York: Signet.​

Rand also said,

"Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him, its sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its content is not. To remain alive he must act and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch––or build a cyclotron––without a knowledge of his aim and the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think." Rand, Ayn (1992) [1957]. Atlas Shrugged (35th anniversary ed.). p. 1012 New York: Dutton​

Now, according to Rand, rationality is the primary virtue in ethics (i.e. morality). For rand ethics is...

"the recognition and acceptance of reason as one's only source of knowledge, one's only judge of values and one's only guide to action." Rand, Ayn (1964). The Virtue of Selfishness (paperback ed.). p. 25 New York: Signet.​

All of which, if God is Logic, is entirely consistent with the common Christian teaching that morality is derived from and defined by God's nature. Which, by the way, is not to say that Ayn Rand was a godly person, nor that her philosophical conclusions were all correct. On the contrary, her rejection of the existence of God led to a great many errors, some of which are disastrous and grievously wrong. But, nevertheless, to the degree she stayed true to reason, her conclusions remained close to the truth, which means, by definition, that they remained close to God and His truth as taught in the pages of Scripture.

Rand's quintessential statement on morality is this ...

"Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil." Ayn Rand: Atlas Shrugged​

Now, since we now know that God is Reason, what could an atheist say that would be any more in line with the teachings of Scripture than that!?

I submit that in fact there is nothing an atheist or anyone else could say that would be more in line with the teaching a Scripture and that in fact we can find the answer to the confusion surrounding the morality of God in the fact the God is Logic. Morality is not simply defined by God's character as many Christians suppose, but rather that which is moral is so because it is rational, which, if you are following the line of thinking in this essay properly, you'll understand is the equivalent of saying that what is moral is so because it is God like. To say that God is moral, is not to say that God has a list of rules He must follow but simply that God is Life and that He is consistent with Himself and therefore acts in way which is proper to Life (i.e. He acts morally). Thus, to say that God is moral is to say that God is rational. An amoral (non-moral) God would be non-rational and therefore non-personal, non-relational, non-thinking, non-living, non-real!

God is real, therefore God is rational, therefore God is moral!

Clete Pfeiffer
3/24/2012
 
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Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Soooo....

I can take the lack of argument as an indication of universal agreement then, yes?

:)
 

Nick M

Plymouth Colonist
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
God is moral.

Murder is immoral whether God declared it to be or not. If there was no God right and wrong, moral and immoral still exist.

Absolute right and wrong exist. It is wrong for Boko Haram, a muslim, to take Christian girls in Africa and rape them whether God exists or not. It is absolutely not wrong for the state of Florida to put Ted Bundy in chair and run high current through his body and kill him. Nor will it be immoral for a godless man like Donald Trump to order carpet bombing in Africa and Iraq to wipe out jihadists.
 

Hawkins

Active member
God is moral, however His stand point may be different from humans'. So if humans use their moral standard (of good and evil) to judge God, the same day humans 'eat of' it, the same day they shall surely die.

Humans are cut from the reach of the Tree of Life. Humans have no sense about what would happen after death. To humans, the physical death marks a final end life in a sense. To God this mark however is just the beginning. To put it another way, we count lives in terms of a physical death. God counts lives in terms of an immortal soul.

That said, ending the life of a human by another human is a sin. However, God can end the physical lives of the Canaanites whose souls are already dead, in order to keep the survival of the Israelites such that more souls can be saved along the time line of humanity.
 

Cross Reference

New member
God is moral, however His stand point may be different from humans'. So if humans use their moral standard (of good and evil) to judge God, the same day humans 'eat of' it, the same day they shall surely die.

Humans are cut from the reach of the Tree of Life. Humans have no sense about what would happen after death. To humans, the physical death marks a final end life in a sense. To God this mark however is just the beginning. To put it another way, we count lives in terms of a physical death. God counts lives in terms of an immortal soul.

That said, ending the life of a human by another human is a sin. However, God can end the physical lives of the Canaanites whose souls are already dead, in order to keep the survival of the Israelites such that more souls can be saved along the time line of humanity.

All canaanites?
 

Cross Reference

New member
Unless we have the right matter in our minds intellectually and in our hearts affectionately, we will be hustled out of usefulness to God. Enter the morality of God purposed to regulate His creation.
 

LoneStar

New member
And it doesn't seem to come closer to an answer to the question: is there a complete set of rules that we can use to determine morality?
Can't think of any. Ecclesiastes chapter 3 tells us there is a time for both love and hate, peace and war, and so on. This may tie into Clete's post about logic/wisdom. While there is a time for everything under the sun, it takes wisdom to know which of the responses would be the best for a given situation >>>> love or hate. Both would be moral depending on the situation.
 

Cross Reference

New member
I don't know how you can read something I never (and never intended to) put in my post.

I said what is exactly in the post, no less and no more. And there is no an "all" anywhere in my post.

Read again till you realize the above.

I did use the word, "careless", didn't I. Thank you.
 
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