Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[Nick M]

Was Peter among these false brethren? Who were they? Jews, certainly. Christ-followers?

James. That doesn't mean James did not repent.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hebrews was definitely not written by Paul and the fact that most scholars agree otherwise is a terrific piece of evidence that he did not write it. "Scholars" make their career by disagreeing with the bible whenever the opportunity to do so presents itself. Biblical Archeologist in particular, it seems, have it as their life's goal to disprove some aspect of the bible, but they aren't unique, unfortunately. It seems the more educated the scholar, the more likely they are to get major issues wrong.

Be that as it may, the strongest argument against Pauline authorship of Hebrews relies on linguistic, stylistic, historical, and theological evidence drawn from multiple sources, including early church testimony, textual analysis, and yes, even scholarly research. I won't bore you with the entire argument, which is lengthy and will instead focus on the biblical elements of the argument, which is more than sufficient....



First, Paul explicitly identifies himself in all his known letters (e.g., “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ…”), yet Hebrews lacks any personal attribution. In 2 Thessalonians 3:17, Paul states that he signs his letters with his own hand to verify authenticity. This is absent in Hebrews.

Second, Hebrews presents a high priestly Christology, focusing on Jesus as the Melchizedekian high priest, which is something Paul never develops in his letters. While Paul emphasizes justification by faith apart from works (e.g., Romans, Galatians), Hebrews leans heavily on endurance, obedience, and covenantal fidelity without explicitly discussing justification by faith alone in Pauline terms. The covenantal discussion in Hebrews is more aligned with Jewish liturgical thought, whereas Paul often frames his arguments in relation to Gentile inclusion and law vs. grace.

Third, Hebrews 2:3 states that the message of salvation “was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,” strongly implying the author was not an eyewitness of Christ’s ministry. Paul, however, consistently claims he received what he referred to as "my gospel" (Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25 & II Timothy 2:8) directly from Christ (Galatians 1:12) and does not rely on secondhand testimony.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.​

​

Galatians 2:6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.​

​

That last point is the real kicker here because if Galatians 1:12 weren't the case and Paul was teaching the same gospel that the Twelve were preaching then there would be no need for Paul's ministry at all. Jesus had just spent three years training His apostles and Judas' replacement had been confirmed not only by the eleven Apostles who remained as Jesus had given them authority to do (Matthew 16:19), but also by the Holy Spirit Himself in Acts 2:1-4.

The "Great Commission" given by Christ to the Twelve was an explicit instruction for them to take the gospel to "all nations" and yet they agreed with Paul to remain in Israel and minister to "the circumcision" (i.e. believing Jews) while Paul would go to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

And notice also why the meeting that produced the above agreement, happened in the first place....

Galatians 2:2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles​

Why would Paul need to be sent by God Himself to Jerusalem in order to explain the gospel to the Twelve if what he was preaching was the same? There wouldn't be any need! It is precisely the fact that he was not preaching the same thing that justifies Paul's being an Apostle at all.

This Jerusalem counsel agreement also relates to the question of Hebrews’ authorship. If Paul wrote Hebrews, then his gospel would have been identical to what the Twelve were preaching, and this Jerusalem council meeting would have been unnecessary. On the other hand, if Paul’s message was distinct and someone wanted to argue that Hebrews reflects Paul’s gospel (which it clearly does not, as shown above), then the fact that it was written to the Hebrews would mean that Paul had violated his agreement with the Twelve. Paul would surely not have done such a thing. He was, after all, sent to this meeting by God Himself. Indeed, if he had violated this agreement by writing to the Hebrews, God would not have allowed it to be included in His Word. Either way you go, this point alone is sufficient to prove that Paul did not write Hebrews.I disagree to most all you have said

I disagree with most all you have said...we can leave it at that...both opinions are out there for all to hear.

 

[Bladerunner]

Hebrews was definitely not written by Paul and the fact that most scholars agree otherwise is a terrific piece of evidence that he did not write it.

Really!

 

[Right Divider]

I disagree with most all you have said...we can leave it at that...both opinions are out there for all to hear.

You seem to think that all opinions are equal. They are not.
You have no idea what's true and what's not.
You cannot support your ideas with reason and logic.

 

[Clete]

And the author tells us.

Well, my point in saying what I said was that an appeal to authority can be rejected as easily as it is excepted. In other words, "because so and so expert says so" isn't a real argument it's just an attempt to use someone as a surrogate brain without having to bother with understanding why those experts say what they say.

 

[Right Divider]

I have the Bible, The WORD of GOD to lean on, you have rewritten its word to your opinion.

Again, LYING will not get you anywhere.

 

[Clete]

Really!

As I told Nick a moment ago, my point in saying what I said was that an appeal to authority can be rejected as easily as it is excepted. In other words, "because so and so expert says so" isn't a real argument, it's just an attempt to use someone as a surrogate brain without having to bother with understanding, much less explaining why those experts say what they say.

If you noticed, I state that scholarly research is included in the reasons why we can know that Paul did not write Hebrews.

 

[Clete]

I disagree with most all you have said...we can leave it at that...both opinions are out there for all to hear.

So long as you understand that your disagreement doesn't do ANYTHING AT ALL to refute a syllable of what I presented.

 

[Bladerunner]

So long as you understand that your disagreement doesn't do ANYTHING AT ALL to refute a syllable of what I presented.

Clete, It is your opinion and your writings follow you opinion/beliefs. All we can do is that and let GOD do the rest for only He can change ones mind and direction. Thanks for being civil....enjoyed the conversation

 

[Bladerunner]

Saw this yesterday:
Proverbs 15:3 KJV — The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

If God doesn't look on some of the evil that men do, then is this verse accurate?

Derf..While the Lord is all seeing/knowing, He does have the free will to allow or disallow events of each man. Does not mean He does not see it for according to scripture, He knew you intimately long before the foundations of the earth were put into use. Have a good day.

 

[Derf]

Derf..While the Lord is all seeing/knowing, He does have the free will to allow or disallow events of each man. Does not mean He does not see it for according to scripture, He knew you intimately long before the foundations of the earth were put into use. Have a good day.

I completely put this in the wrong thread. I'll put it in the Omniscience of God thread, if you want to comment there.

 

[Lon]

Really!

This one not a major doctrinal difference. I went to Multnomah Bible Seminary, they taught basically all this and let us simply have the evidence. I used to think Paul likely wrote Hebrews simply because tradition had set him as author but there are many good reasons to question whether tradition is right. Its scripture, that is enough. We tend to want Paul to be the author as to 'why' it is in our Bible, but imho, it isn't necessary.

One reason not, is because Paul was specifically the 'Apostle to the gentiles.'

 

[Clete]

Clete, It is your opinion and your writings follow you opinion/beliefs.

No, Bladerunner! You can say this as many times as you like but it doesn't make it so.

Opinions are about personal preferences, not facts. Whether I prefer green beans over peas is a matter of opinion, but whether Paul wrote Hebrews is not, it’s a historical question. He either did or he didn’t. While there may be strong arguments on both sides, and the issue may remain unresolved, that doesn’t make it a matter of opinion. It’s still a subject of historical evidence and analysis.

There’s no such thing as “my truth” when it comes to objective facts. The Earth’s roundness or the speed of light are not open to personal interpretation. Some questions, like authorship of Hebrews, may not have a definitive answer, but that doesn’t make them subjective and it doesn't give you permission to arbitrarily decide which side you are going to take as one might do regarding a matter of opinion.

I have presented what is definitely the best biblical argument that exists concerning whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not. I have seen them all many times. On the other hand, I would almost bet my house that you have never heard even 10% of the argument I presented and you're here blowing it off as "my opinion" because you don't have the slightest idea how to deal with it.

Don't be afraid of sound reason, Bladerunner! Don't turn off your mind because someone presents something that might mean you have something wrong. The truth will NEVER betray you.

All we can do is that and let GOD do the rest for only He can change ones mind and direction. Thanks for being civil....enjoyed the conversation

You don't actually believe this though, right?

Your doctrine teaches that every syllable I've written on this website was not only predestined, but that God was in absolute meticulous sovereign control of my fingers as I typed the post; that God Himself predestined me not only to believe in free will but also to formulate arguments that regularly send Calvinists into hysterics; that whether I am civil or combative was God's decision from an eternity before time began and that nothing can ever change any of it. Right?

Do you ever notice or think about the fact that you hold in your mind certain doctrines to be true but that you speak and live your life as though it is my doctrine that is actually true? You call yourself a Calvinist but act like an Open Theist every single day of your life. Even the mental and spiritual process that brought you to believe in Calvinism can only be described in terms that are consistent with the Open View, as you just did above. Every action you take and every thought in your mind looks and feels exactly as it should if my doctrine is the truth and they can only be rationally discussed in those terms. You are literally incapable of NOT tacitly contradicting your own doctrine.

Food for thought!

 

[Bladerunner]

This one not a major doctrinal difference. I went to Multnomah Bible Seminary, they taught basically all this and let us simply have the evidence. I used to think Paul likely wrote Hebrews simply because tradition had set him as author but there are many good reasons to question whether tradition is right. Its scripture, that is enough. We tend to want Paul to be the author as to 'why' it is in our Bible, but imho, it isn't necessary.

One reason not, is because Paul was specifically the 'Apostle to the gentiles.'

Again, Paul is not the author. GOD is.....Paul because of several grammatical differences most likely wrote Hebrews.....It was the message that was within Hebrews. If Paul wrote it (I'm sure He did ) then why did He not sign it as He had in other epistles that He had written.

P.s. Did you know that the beginning statement of Hebrews is the only Book in all 66 Books where God was the first word.

 

[Clete]

Again, Paul is not the author. GOD is.....Paul because of several grammatical differences most likely wrote Hebrews.....It was the message that was within Hebrews. If Paul wrote it (I'm sure He did ) then why did He not sign it as He had in other epistles that He had written.

P.s. Did you know that the beginning statement of Hebrews is the only Book in all 66 Books where God was the first word.

I'm confused. Did you say that right?

 

[Bladerunner]

No, Bladerunner! You can say this as many times as you like but it doesn't make it so.

Opinions are about personal preferences, not facts. Whether I prefer green beans over peas is a matter of opinion, but whether Paul wrote Hebrews is not, it’s a historical question. He either did or he didn’t. While there may be strong arguments on both sides, and the issue may remain unresolved, that doesn’t make it a matter of opinion. It’s still a subject of historical evidence and analysis.

Clete,,yet you believe that the historical facts you present are the ones that are accurate. I on the other side feel the same way....In your opinion, Paul did not write Hebrews. Does it matter....for GOD was the Author or do you dispute that as well.

 

[Bladerunner]

I'm confused. Did you say that right?

Yes I said it right....Why did Paul not sign it as He had in the other epistles...The answer is in the body of the Epistle. I'll leave that to you to figure out...As You said. I should not waste my time writing anything that you and others are not going to believe.

 

[Clete]

Clete,,yet you believe that the historical facts you present are the ones that are accurate. I on the other side feel the same way....In your opinion,

No! It is NOT my opinion!

One of us is wrong, Bladerunner!

Opinions do not work that way! You cannot be wrong about an opinion. The truth of an opinion is predicated on your preference. It is subjective, by definition.

Paul did not write Hebrews. Does it matter....for GOD was the Author or do you dispute that as well.

It matters because if Paul wrote Hebrews the entire bible is false.

NO! That is NOT my opinion either!

 

[Clete]

Yes I said it right....Why did Paul not sign it as He had in the other epistles...The answer is in the body of the Epistle. I'll leave that to you to figure out...As You said. I should not waste my time writing anything that you and others are not going to believe.

You are intentionally wasting my time.

If this is the way you formulated your doctrine than you're worse than a fool, you're stupid.

"Paul because of several grammatical differences most likely wrote Hebrews" would argue AGAINST him being the author not for it! It would need to say "Paul, because of several grammatical SIMILARITIES, most likely wrote Hebrews".

 

[Bladerunner]

No, Bladerunner! You can say this as many times as you like but it doesn't make it so.

Opinions are about personal preferences, not facts. Whether I prefer green beans over peas is a matter of opinion, but whether Paul wrote Hebrews is not, it’s a historical question. He either did or he didn’t. While there may be strong arguments on both sides, and the issue may remain unresolved, that doesn’t make it a matter of opinion. It’s still a subject of historical evidence and analysis.

There’s no such thing as “my truth” when it comes to objective facts. The Earth’s roundness or the speed of light are not open to personal interpretation. Some questions, like authorship of Hebrews, may not have a definitive answer, but that doesn’t make them subjective and it doesn't give you permission to arbitrarily decide which side you are going to take as one might do regarding a matter of opinion.

I have presented what is definitely the best biblical argument that exists concerning whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not. I have seen them all many times. On the other hand, I would almost bet my house that you have never heard even 10% of the argument I presented and you're here blowing it off as "my opinion" because you don't have the slightest idea how to deal with it.

Don't be afraid of sound reason, Bladerunner! Don't turn off your mind because someone presents something that might mean you have something wrong. The truth will NEVER betray you.


You don't actually believe this though, right?

Your doctrine teaches that every syllable I've written on this website was not only predestined, but that God was in absolute meticulous sovereign control of my fingers as I typed the post; that God Himself predestined me not only to believe in free will but also to formulate arguments that regularly send Calvinists into hysterics; that whether I am civil or combative was God's decision from an eternity before time began and that nothing can ever change any of it. Right?

Why are you so angry!
No, It does not. The predestined, called, Justified, Glorified pertains to Salvation only....not to your every day affairs..