Is death just another life?

glorydaz

Well-known member
One is not spiritually dead because of Adam's sin but because of our own sin.

Ezekiel 18 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:​
‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes,​
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?​
3 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.​
4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;​
The soul of the father​
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;​
The soul who sins shall die.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.​

It is truly an amazing and completely inexplicable thing that the doctrine of Original Sin exists at all. It simply cannot survive even a cursory reading of Ezekiel 18.

The question is when the soul dies. And it says soul, not spirit. If you count them together, which I think they are, then it still doesn't say the "soul" dies immediately on sinning. In fact, there are some Judgments coming up that will determine what happens. We may be condemned to death when we sin, but I see no proof that the soul or spirit dies until the day of Judgment.
Then there's the book of Romans...

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​
"I was alive once..." - (note the past tense that Paul uses here) - I can't image how it could be any clearer than that! I honestly am quite flabbergasted by the near universal acceptance of "Original Sin" throughout Christianity. You, in a previous post, seemed to suggest that its a Catholic thing, and it is but it isn't just the Catholics that believe this nonsense, it's virtually the whole of the Christian church that teaches it in one form or another. Calvinists call it "Total Hereditary Depravity" but it's virtually the exact same doctrine.

Paul was speaking of how it is under the law. There is no death of spirit involved.
So, no it hasn't anything to do with Adam's sin, at least not directly. When Adam sinned, he didn't just die spiritually but something about his very nature was altered. This altered nature is what Paul referred to as "the flesh" and this "fleshly nature" is passed from one generation to the next through the father. Jesus then, having been born of a virgin and without an earthly father was born without "the flesh" and was, being without spot or blemish, qualified to be the sacrifice for sin.
That is a surmise, but nothing more than that. "Something about his nature..." Conjecture.

We are no different than Adam. What changed was sin "entered the world".
The fact remains, however, that we regular people have "the flesh" to deal with because we do have earthly fathers who are descended from fallen Adam and so our instinct is to rebel. We are, however, alive to God in spite of this fleshly condition and are only cut off from God when we choose to rebel against Him and sin (Romans 7:9).

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man You' and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)​
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Adam's sin had consequences that needed dealt with and God did deal with them at Calvary. Thus, to whatever extent death is passed from father to son, Christ fixed that with His own death. Therefore, God, knowing that Calvary was coming, only ever held / holds people accountable for THEIR OWN SIN (Ezekiel 18), not Adam's.

Your premise is not supported by scripture.
No, not at all!
I have no issue with insults when they are earned. You whine like a seven year old about being insulted and act like I'm sort of awful person because I am not afraid to point out stupidity when I see it and then you turn around and do the very thing that you condemn me for doing.

Hypocrisy is a sin, glorydaz, or don't you care about that?

So stop one or the other! Either stop with the vapid insults that are obviously based in nothing more substantive than your emotions or shut up about my insulting you when you say things that any third grader and see are incoherent nonsense.

Clete
What a buffoon. I "whine like a seven year old"?

I laugh at your childish temper tantrums. And hypocrite? You gotta be looking in the mirror.
 

Derf

Well-known member
No you won't!

There is no assumption needed! I answered your question!

Now, you will either acknowledge that or you've wasted you time with whatever else was written in this post because I won't read it until you do.

Clete
We've moved on, Clete.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Then Adam & Eve were not spiritually dead when they ate the fruit.
Because they still had a relationship with God as God sought them out and clothed them.
Don't forget they had some 24 hours, supposedly, to die after eating the fruit. God came to them in the evening, normally, and they had eaten it in the day-time, presumably. So if God made them some leather clothes and kicked them out of the garden by some time within that 24 hours, then it might still apply.

However, you make an interesting point--that the day as defined in the first chapter began with the evening. So if God came to walk with them in the "cool of the day", then was that at the end of the day, where it transitions into "evening"? How long did it take for God to make the animal skins for them, to curse them all, drive them out and establish the flaming sword angels? Hard to tell if they were kicked out that day or not.
 

Tambora

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They died that day, Tambora.
Well the death they died sure wasn't a loss of relationship with God because God sought them out and clothed them when they ate the fruit.


When they were removed from the Garden of Eden, they were removed from the presence of God and were thus spiritually dead.
God was still with them.
And God was still with them when Cain killed Abel.


Sheesh! You people are thick!
Don't be such a tootie pootie.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
The OT fathers called it sleep, because it looks like the person is sleeping. No more no less.
its referred to as sleep because they still exist .

new testament still calling it sleep
1Co_15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

souls awaiting the resurrection but alive=(with God) and still existing and interacting with God
Rev_6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
You have said elsewhere on this thread that our soul is who we are. I agree with that. If who we are is still conscious in death then we still have emotions and know what is happening. That is in complete contradiction to the OT and to Jesus' unequivocal statement of death being sleep.
no.

Jesus taught existence after death
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
But I will deal with your points, in reverse order.
The first is God putting someone to death after He gives them life--only to give them life later on. Why is this a problem? Isn't that what He promised to Adam? And here's scriptural support: [Deu 32:39 KJV] 39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.
murder is a sin
killing someone who did nothing wrong is sin
And the souls he tells to go back to sleep: [Rev 6:11 KJV] 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.
blah blah blah
flesh and blood in heaven and God is a murderer . very odd indeed
1Co_15:50 ...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God
Samuel fits right into that, as he complains that Saul had disquieted him (disturbed his rest): [1Sa 28:15 KJV] 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me
so you want to stick with Samuel digging his way out of the ground

the woman could see through the dirt a physical body digging his way up before Saul could which is what you believe ,
and then God murdered Samuel . very odd indeed

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.”
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?”


The eating comment is not worth dealing with, and just shows your desparation.
you can't answer with out sounding absurd

so 930 years to eat , very odd indeed

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
God sought them out indicates seperation
Actually, God knew they were hiding. God waited for Adam explain himself.

Gen. 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
its referred to as sleep because they still exist .

new testament still calling it sleep
1Co_15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

souls awaiting the resurrection but alive=(with God) and still existing and interacting with God
Rev_6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
Rev 6:10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
That, too.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Actually, God knew they were hiding. God waited for Adam explain himself.

Gen. 3:8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
yes those verses show separation
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
And the souls he tells to go back to sleep: [Rev 6:11 KJV] 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

On this one, he doesn't tell them to go back to sleep, does he? Resting is not sleeping.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Samuel fits right into that, as he complains that Saul had disquieted him (disturbed his rest): [1Sa 28:15 KJV] 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me
I remember when we used to go back and forth on Samuel. :)

If someone was waiting in Abraham's bosom, then of course, he's just relaxing and waiting.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
yes they do
hid themselves,
Where art thou?

which is separated

They were carrying on a conversation.
God talked to them, to pronounce curses , so ?

Curses? Well, He cursed the serpent and He cursed the ground. Sin entered the world. God still interacted with Adam and Eve making them coverings of skins. He even interacted with Cain, after Cain had killed able. No separation from God there.

Gen. 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Jesus talked to people too

and they were separated as soon as they ate
Very funny. :):)
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
They were carrying on a conversation.
so , its spiritual separation
Curses? Well, He cursed the serpent and He cursed the ground. Sin entered the world. God still interacted with Adam and Eve making them coverings of skins. He even interacted with Cain, after Cain had killed able. No separation from God there.
Cain , definitely spiritually dead ,spiritually separated from God

Gen. 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
I think the question you have is what makes someone spiritually alive vs spiritually dead ?
from my perspective

my answer
spiritually alive the Spirit of God dwells in you
Rom_8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom_8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom_8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Rom_8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom_8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

spiritually dead is sin separated from God
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
so , its spiritual separation

Cain , definitely spiritually dead ,spiritually separated from God

I'm not seeing it. God is spirit....spirit to spirit.

So rather than being "spiritually dead" and trying to explain that away, why not just admit that God, Himself, decides whether or not He will hear us.

Isaiah 59:1-2
Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

So, then we're back to not being "dead", but being condemned to death when we sin.

Because if we fail to respond to the drawing of the Cross and the Gospel, it isn't because we are unable in any way.
Which is why man is without excuse. We need to stop giving man an excuse by saying our spirit is unable to do so.
 
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