Is death just another life?

[glorydaz]

no
Rom_7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

there is
physical death
death as a person
death is a place
and spiritual death

Ah, so which kind of dead would this be? I submit there are allegorical deads.


Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

you have to be spiritually alive to walk in the spirit

Joh_4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1Co_2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So you don't believe the unsaved can hear or respond to the Gospel? Is that what you're saying?

How do you know the unsaved are spiritually dead instead of just condemned to die for their sins?

they are spiritually dead and they have a spirit that can still respond to the Holy Spirit

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2Co_3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Good point, but lots of stuff happening here before quickened.

Col. 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;

This got me to looking. These sound like a rousings, but not from the dead.

• Psalm 119:37
  Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
  
  
• Psalm 119:40
  Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
  
  
• Psalm 119:50
  This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Adam believed Satan more than he believed God, and it was counted as a deception.

Actually scripture states that Adam was not deceived.

 

[Clete]

Maybe I missed it. Would you confirm it for me?

No, I wont.

 

[Clete]

When it's supported by Scripture, it certainly does.


No decent counter arguments have been given.


Ah, well that's a start, and it's very important to this discussion.

You haven't figured out what Paul is saying in Romans 6-8. That's clear.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth .fruit unto death

Notice how there is nothing there about our being spiritually dead. What we do see is "fruit unto death". You see the "wages" of sin. That is something we earn and why we're captives that need to be set free. We're under a death sentence.

Romans 6:21-23
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Instead of being "DEAD spiritually", what we lack is not the will but how to perform that which is good. That's why we can hear the preaching of the Gospel and respond to it.

Romans 7:18-19
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

None of this refutes a single syllable of what I've now repeatedly argued.

Clete

 

[Derf]

No, I wont.

Then you may leave the thread. Your presence here is no longer helpful, if you aren’t willing to ever admit you were wrong.

 

[Clete]

Then you may leave the thread. Your presence here is no longer helpful, if you aren’t willing to ever admit you were wrong.

I wasn't wrong. At most we were talking past one another and all you're doing now is asking me to REPEAT myself!
It seems all you're interested in is wasting my time.

And I will post in any thread I desire to post in whether you like what I have to say or not.

 

[Gary K]

prove it is here

Gen 2:17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

eating only took minutes , so that is a 24 hour day

The Hebraicism shown in what I mistakenly called a footnote when it's a margin note, shows that this is an instance of a figurative day. I am living proof of this.

For in dying I shall die. I was diagnosed with congestive heart failure a few years ago and I asked at that time how long I had to live as congestive heart failure is a death sentence. The doctor that diagnosed my death sentence told me he didn't know. It might be anywhere between 2 years and 20 years from then.

My mom died of it 10 years after her diagnosis. She was given 3 months to live and told to just go home and lie down on the couch and die. She got mad at that and ended up living as long as she did through exercise and dietary changes. But in dying she died.

My time in dying is running out. I now have to take 2 naps morning and afternoon because my heart doesn't work well enough to give me the energy I need. My day of death is rapidly approaching but the day of my death sentence was years ago.

This, in principle, is what happened to both Adam and Eve. They were kicked out of the Garden for their sin and denied further access to the Tree of Life thus ensuring their death. But Adam lived almost a thousand years after his death sentence was given for in dying by being deprived of the Tree of Life he died. Sin is as sure a death sentence as is congestive heart failure but we are given time to repent for our sins for in dying we shall die.

 

[Derf]

I wasn't wrong. At most we were talking past one another and all you're doing now is asking me to REPEAT myself!
It seems all you're interested in is wasting my time.

And I will post in any thread I desire to post in whether you like what I have to say or not.

Do you still agree with this:

There is no reason to believe that "day" in Genesis 2 means anything other than what it means in Genesis 1. If you want to say otherwise then the burden is on you! I take the plain meaning of the text.

Here’s “day” used in Gen 2:
Genesis 2:4 (KJV) These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Is that use of “day” 24 hours?

 

[glorydaz]

None of this refutes a single syllable of what I've now repeatedly argued.

Clete

Then your arguments aren't clear enough to be understood...much less agreed with.

 

[way 2 go]

Ah, so which kind of dead would this be? I submit there are allegorical deads.


Romans 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

body of sin and death
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

So you don't believe the unsaved can hear or respond to the Gospel? Is that what you're saying?

no.
are you the one who gives life to the spirit?

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

How do you know the unsaved are spiritually dead instead of just condemned to die for their sins?

the bible teaches we have a spirit, it exist after the death of the body,
it will continue to exist in one of two places post cross depending on whether they are dead or alive spiritually .


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Good point, but lots of stuff happening here before quickened.

Col. 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;

This got me to looking. These sound like a rousings, but not from the dead.

• Psalm 119:37
  Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way.
  
  
• Psalm 119:40
  Behold, I have longed after thy precepts: quicken me in thy righteousness.
  
  
• Psalm 119:50
  This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

so ?
Christians still die physically ,life is given to their spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

body of sin and death
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Nothing there about being spiritually dead.

no.
are you the one who gives life to the spirit?

Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

That's talking about the word of God, and that certainly causes us to grow spiritually.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

the bible teaches we have a spirit, it exist after the death of the body,
it will continue to exist in one of two places post cross depending on whether they are dead or alive spiritually .


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

so ?
Christians still die physically ,life is given to their spirit.

What about the soul? The soul is the real us.

 

[Idolater]

...What I've denied is that it took more than 144 hours for God to create the Heavens, the Earth and everything in them (Exodus 20:11 & Exodus 31:17).

Clete

Excellent, agreed.

 

[way 2 go]

Nothing there about being spiritually dead.

no.
you said "Ah, so which kind of dead would this be? rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. "
dead to sin
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That's talking about the word of God, and that certainly causes us to grow spiritually.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

via the spirit
Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

What about the soul? The soul is the real us.

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 

[glorydaz]

no.
you said "Ah, so which kind of dead would this be? rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. "
dead to sin
Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That's the exact opposite of being spiritually dead. For he that is (spiritually) dead is freed from sin?

via the spirit
Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

That only proves what I'm saying. The "spirit of wisdom and revelation" is not the Holy Spirit.

And, yes the souls under the altar. What's the point you're trying to make here?

 

[glorydaz]

@ way 2 go


Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We could not be "spiritually dead" if we

1. "heard the word of truth (gospel)
2. "in whom you also trusted
3. "after that you believed
4. "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

Rather, we were sinners CONDEMNED to die for our sins.
On death row. Locked up awaiting sentencing.

 

[way 2 go]

@ way 2 go


Eph. 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

We could not be "spiritually dead" if we

1. "heard the word of truth (gospel)

why ?

 

[glorydaz]

why ?

Because we respond to the Gospel while we are still "dead in our sins".

 

[way 2 go]

That's the exact opposite of being spiritually dead. For he that is (spiritually) dead is freed from sin?

the body is still dying but the spirit is made alive
before that
we had a dying body and a dead still functioning spirit .

That only proves what I'm saying. The "spirit of wisdom and revelation" is not the Holy Spirit.

no

And, yes the souls under the altar. What's the point you're trying to make here?

just answering your question "What about the soul? The soul is the real us. "

to reiterate
yes The soul is the real us and exists after death

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 

[way 2 go]

Because we respond to the Gospel while we are still "dead in our sins".

yes, your dead spirit can respond to the Holy Spirits call and be made alive by the Holy Spirit

Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”

 

[glorydaz]

the body is still dying but the spirit is made alive
before that
we had a dying body and a dead still functioning spirit .

Ah, so how do you see that our spirit was dead but still functioning?
As much as I love you, way 2 go, that seems like sort of a non-answer.

Wouldn't that be condemned rather than "spiritually dead" as so many assume?

no

just answering your question "What about the soul? The soul is the real us. "

to reiterate
yes The soul is the real us and exists after death

Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Ah, now I get your reference for the soul. Thanks for clarifying.