Is Calvinism Wrong?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

...

 

[Clete]

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church. I am sure that James came into a better understanding of the Gospel and justification by faith at a later date.

The book of James is in the bible, Robert.

 

[Clete]

1. Jesus preached the Kingdom Gospel. It was the good news that the King had arrived.

2. The apostles did not preach a Gospel prior to Acts 2. They didn't know anything.

3. The Gospel of grace is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Why aren't you answering the question?

So the Apostles didn't preach anything, brilliant.

Well, that takes care of one of the three, one from three still leaves two. Perhaps now you'll actually answer the question I asked...

So you agree then that there is not only one gospel?

Also, what gospel did Jesus instruct the Apostles to preach in Mark 16:14-18?

Clete

 

[Clete]

James agrees that we are saved by faith, pointing to Abraham and using the same scripture Paul uses as proof of his meaning. Don't bend the passage out of its intended context please. James speaks of the evidence (works) of faith. Paul compares faith against deeds (works) of the law.

The entire chapter is about the fact that faith alone does not save you. Verse 24 is James' one sentence summary of what he's just been arguing.

 

[Clete]

Do you realize WHO James was speaking to? James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." James wasn't referencing the Gentiles nor the 'Gospel of the grace of God' that Paul was preaching.

To point out who is being spoken to is to bring up the issue of context and, of course, we know that an appeal to context is only allowed when you need the passage to say the opposite of what it seems to say.








This sentence is added to the end of my post for those of you who didn't catch the sarcasm contained in the sentence above.

 

[Robert Pate]

Some of the New Testament is about the transition from Judaism to Christianity. If you don't understand this transition you will not understand the New Testament. Many in the early church could not stop living by rules, laws and religion (Judaism). Things have not changed very much. Many today still want to live by rules, laws and religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Living by faith does not mean living by laws, rules and religion. The just live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Religion is not an indication of faith. Religion is an indication of the absence of faith. If you have to belong to something or you have to do something, you are not living by faith, you are living by religion. The definition of religion is... "Man's preoccupation with his own spirituality" who is a sinner. Satan loves religion because religion is about you who is a sinner. Those that are living by faith are not concerned about religion. Their focus is Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

 

[Clete]

Some of the New Testament is about the transition from Judaism to Christianity. If you don't understand this transition you will not understand the New Testament. Many in the early church could not stop living by rules, laws and religion (Judaism). Things have not changed very much. Many today still want to live by rules, laws and religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Living by faith does not mean living by laws, rules and religion. The just live by faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Religion is not an indication of faith. Religion is an indication of the absence of faith. If you have to belong to something or you have to do something, you are not living by faith, you are living by religion. The definition of religion is... "Man's preoccupation with his own spirituality" who is a sinner. Satan loves religion because religion is about you who is a sinner. Those that are living by faith are not concerned about religion. Their focus is Jesus Christ and his Gospel.

I don't disagree with any of this.

What I don't understand is how you can arrive at these conclusions without understanding that the gospel Paul preached was not the same gospel that Jesus and the Twelve preached. (i.e. not only one gospel).

 

[Robert Pate]

Why aren't you answering the question?

So the Apostles didn't preach anything, brilliant.

Well, that takes care of one of the three, one from three still leaves two. Perhaps now you'll actually answer the question I asked...

So you agree then that there is not only one gospel?

Also, what gospel did Jesus instruct the Apostles to preach in Mark 16:14-18?

Clete

When I refer to the "Gospel" it is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. when I am referring to the Kingdom Gospel I will say so.

Everyone believes that Jesus has come and gone. The Kingdom Gospel is no longer relevant, its history. The Gospel that we are called to preach is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

 

[Robert Pate]

You just make things up, on the fly, Pate, not studying the details of the book, and carelessly just winging it, making up terms, that are nowhere to be found, much less taught, in the book.


The apostles sure did preach a "good news," a gospel, prior to Acts 2, you deceiver-the gospel of the kingdom, the same good news the Lord Jesus Christ preached, the same good news he told the 12 to preach, including Judas. But that is not equivalent to the good news of 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV, the gospel of Christ.

Matthew 10 KJV
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphæus, and Lebbæus, whose surname was Thaddæus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


Luke 9 KJV

1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. 3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece. 4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart. 5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. 6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

The apostles did not preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. until after Acts chapter 2.

What they did preach was the "Kingdom Gospel" which was the good news that the King had arrived.

 

[Clete]

When I refer to the "Gospel" it is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. when I am referring to the Kingdom Gospel I will say so.

Everyone believes that Jesus has come and gone. The Kingdom Gospel is no longer relevant, its history. The Gospel that we are called to preach is the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

So, then there has been more than one gospel, right?

Where is the hesitation to simply say what you clearly agree with?

By the way, you don't get to redefine common words. Jesus used the word gospel as did the authors of "The Gospels". The word means what it means. Redefining it only serves to muddy the water and cause people to call you names and freak out over points that don't even need to be made in the first place.

The bottom line is that no one in the New Testament preached Paul's gospel other than Paul himself and those affiliated with his ministry (Barnabas, Timothy, etc). The Twelve were saved under the Kingdom Gospel and so they and their converts remained under that calling (Romans 11:29). They agreed with Paul that they would remain in Jerusalem ministering to the circumcision (i.e. Kingdom believers) and he would go to the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace (Gal. 2:7-9), which he (Paul) had not received from men nor was he taught it but it had been given him by direct divine revelation (Gal. 1:12).

Thus we have two groups, one justified by works plus faith (James 2), the other by faith apart from works (Rom. 4). The first group ministered to by Peter, James and John (i.e. the Twelve) and the second by Paul. The first group, of course, eventually died out and that entire program came to an end leaving only the Gospel of Grace in effect today. But Israel's being cut off is a temporary condition and God will return to Isreal after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25).

There's Mid-Acts Dispensationalism in six sentences.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

The apostles did not preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. until after Acts chapter 2.

What they did preach was the "Kingdom Gospel" which was the good news that the King had arrived.

The problem here is that the bible and even Jesus' own words clearly contradict you!

Matthew 10:22
Mark 16:16
Matthew 26:28
Luke 1:77
Luke 3:3
Luke 24:47
Matthew 19:16-19
Matthew 19:29
Matthew 25:46
Mark 10:30

JOHN 3:15-16

and on and on and on I could go!

 

[Robert Pate]

The problem here is that the bible and even Jesus' own words clearly contradict you!

Matthew 10:22
Mark 16:16
Matthew 26:28
Luke 1:77
Luke 3:3
Luke 24:47
Matthew 19:16-19
Matthew 19:29
Matthew 25:46
Mark 10:30

JOHN 3:15-16

and on and on and on I could go!

There are multitudes that believe Jesus is the Christ, which is the Kingdom Gospel, but they are not Christians. Believing that Jesus is the Son Of God will not save anyone. If you believe that Jesus is your example and not your savior, you are lost. Believing the Kingdom Gospel does not save.

The only ones that are going to be saved are those that believe Paul's Gospel. They believe that Jesus has justified them by his doing and his dying, they also believe that Jesus has reconciled them to God and that they are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. They have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

 

[Right Divider]

So, then there has been more than one gospel, right?

Where is the hesitation to simply say what you clearly agree with?

By the way, you don't get to redefine common words. Jesus used the word gospel as did the authors of "The Gospels". The word means what it means. Redefining it only serves to muddy the water and cause people to call you names and freak out over points that don't even need to be made in the first place.

The bottom line is that no one in the New Testament preached Paul's gospel other than Paul himself and those affiliated with his ministry (Barnabas, Timothy, etc). The Twelve were saved under the Kingdom Gospel and so they and their converts remained under that calling (Romans 11:29). They agreed with Paul that they would remain in Jerusalem ministering to the circumcision (i.e. Kingdom believers) and he would go to the Gentiles with the Gospel of Grace (Gal. 2:7-9), which he (Paul) had not received from men nor was he taught it but it had been given him by direct divine revelation (Gal. 1:12).

Thus we have two groups, one justified by works plus faith (James 2), the other by faith apart from works (Rom. 4). The first group ministered to by Peter, James and John (i.e. the Twelve) and the second by Paul. The first group, of course, eventually died out and that entier program came to an end leaving only the Gospel of Grace in effect today. But Israel's being cut off is a temporary condition and God will return to Isreal after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (Rom. 11:25).

There's Mid-Acts Dispensationalism in six ssentences.

Resting in Him,
Clete

... Completely true and yet gives so many people conniptions!

 

[Clete]

There are multitudes that believe Jesus is the Christ, which is the Kingdom Gospel, but they are not Christians. Believing that Jesus is the Son Of God will not save anyone. If you believe that Jesus is your example and not your savior, you are lost. Believing the Kingdom Gospel does not save.

The only ones that are going to be saved are those that believe Paul's Gospel. They believe that Jesus has justified them by his doing and his dying, they also believe that Jesus has reconciled them to God and that they are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. They have entered into his rest, Hebrews 4:10.

Repeating your position does nothign to refute what I just proved.

The bible and Jesus Himself talked about being saved, the remission of sins, eternal life, etc, etc, etc.

What you keep repeating about being saved today is quite correct but none of that was in effect before Paul. Are you then suggesting that no one was ever saved before Acts 9?

If you aren't saying that, which I strongly suspect, then by what gospel were they saved?

 

[Clete]

... Completely true and yet gives so many people conniptions!

Very true!

 

[Robert Pate]

Repeating your position does nothign to refute what I just proved.

The bible and Jesus Himself talked about being saved, the remission of sins, eternal life, etc, etc, etc.

What you keep repeating about being saved today is quite correct but none of that was in effect before Paul. Are you then suggesting that no one was ever saved before Acts 9?

If you aren't saying that, which I strongly suspect, then by what gospel were they saved?

From the very beginning, in the Old Testament, people were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Things have not changed. We are still saved and justified by faith, but now the object of our faith is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of God's promise. People were saved in the early church by believing that Jesus was God's promised savior, their promised savior. If you don't see Jesus as your very own personal savior, then chances are you are not saved.

Believing the Kingdom Gospel does not save.

 

[john w]

The apostles did not preach the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. until after Acts chapter 2.

What they did preach was the "Kingdom Gospel" which was the good news that the King had arrived.

I taught you the above, idiot. Now, you are changing your "argument," you deceiver-previously, on "As Pate Spins, Lies, engages in 'Happy Hour' before noon:"

2. The apostles did not preach a Gospel prior to Acts 2. They didn't know anything.

Sober up.

 

[john w]

From the very beginning, in the Old Testament, people were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Things have not changed. We are still saved and justified by faith, but now the object of our faith is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of God's promise. People were saved in the early church by believing that Jesus was God's promised savior, their promised savior. If you don't see Jesus as your very own personal savior, then chances are you are not saved.

Believing the Kingdom Gospel does not save.

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...lieved-in-Mt-John-prior-to-the-dbr&highlight=


Sloppy Pate refuses to study the details of the book, just making things up, on the fly. My evidence? His "posts."

 

[beloved57]

From the very beginning, in the Old Testament, people were saved and justified by faith in God's promise of a savior. Things have not changed. We are still saved and justified by faith, but now the object of our faith is Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of God's promise. People were saved in the early church by believing that Jesus was God's promised savior, their promised savior. If you don't see Jesus as your very own personal savior, then chances are you are not saved.

Believing the Kingdom Gospel does not save.

The object of your faith is your own freewill to save you.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Rosenritter]

The entire chapter is about the fact that faith alone does not save you. Verse 24 is James' one sentence summary of what he's just been arguing.

If that was your take then you clearly did not understand the book, and you would have James contradict himself from one verse to the next.

Romans 4:9 KJV
(9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Galatians 3:6 KJV
(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

James 2:23 KJV
(23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James and Paul are obviously in agreement; and I think it is far more likely that you are in the misunderstanding than either James or Paul, who wrote these epistles by the Holy Ghost.