Anything from the Prophets and the Apostles??
Irenaeus and Victorinus
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
One of the problems with the book is that it is circular. It doesn't really go anywhere. Sure it was fun at first to walk around in the wilderness having shoes that never wore out. But after about forty years of eating dust it got kind of boring.
falls on deaf ears I'm sure but for what it's worth this is from my religion the Urantia revelation:
"Several years after the martyrdom of James, John married his brother’s widow. The last twenty years of his life he was cared for by a loving granddaughter.
John was in prison several times and was banished to the Isle of Patmos for a period of four years until another emperor came to power in Rome. Had not John been tactful and sagacious, he would undoubtedly have been killed as was his more outspoken brother James. As the years passed, John, together with James the Lord’s brother, learned to practice wise conciliation when they appeared before the civil magistrates. They found that a “soft answer turns away wrath.” They also learned to represent the church as a “spiritual brotherhood devoted to the social service of mankind” rather than as “the kingdom of heaven.” They taught loving service rather than ruling power — kingdom and king.
When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form.
John traveled much, labored incessantly, and after becoming bishop of the Asia churches, settled down at Ephesus. He directed his associate, Nathan, in the writing of the so-called “Gospel according to John,” at Ephesus, when he was ninety-nine years old. Of all the twelve apostles, John Zebedee eventually became the outstanding theologian. He died a natural death at Ephesus in A.D. 103 when he was one hundred and one years of age."
John was in prison several times and was banished to the Isle of Patmos for a period of four years until another emperor came to power in Rome. Had not John been tactful and sagacious, he would undoubtedly have been killed as was his more outspoken brother James. As the years passed, John, together with James the Lord’s brother, learned to practice wise conciliation when they appeared before the civil magistrates. They found that a “soft answer turns away wrath.” They also learned to represent the church as a “spiritual brotherhood devoted to the social service of mankind” rather than as “the kingdom of heaven.” They taught loving service rather than ruling power — kingdom and king.
When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form.
John traveled much, labored incessantly, and after becoming bishop of the Asia churches, settled down at Ephesus. He directed his associate, Nathan, in the writing of the so-called “Gospel according to John,” at Ephesus, when he was ninety-nine years old. Of all the twelve apostles, John Zebedee eventually became the outstanding theologian. He died a natural death at Ephesus in A.D. 103 when he was one hundred and one years of age."
Wouldn't it be great if we could all go to The Middle East and find a pack of poorly dressed tent people walking aimlessly in circles out in the desert eating stale bread and threading the original population of the area?
What a learning experience!
Maybe we could call it the University of the Intellectually Deficient.
What do you think?
Sorry for the long delay in answering, I forgot about this thread. :doh:
If it were written by John the Baptist, then I would include it for the reason that Jesus had respect for John. But how could John the Baptist have written it? When was he ever in Patmos?
The Apocalypse of John is an interesting book, but I wouldn't include it as inspired by God. It is a letter written by one of the early Christians, so it is worth reading, but doctrines shouldn't be based solely on the Apocalypse. Caution is necessary.
no one is saying john the baptist was in patmos
but
it has been suggested that he wrote the first version
and
it was later redacted by another john
this would explain the ancient copies referred to by irenaeus
and
why victorinus didn't know about the churches
I have another thread about this
the three johns
Commentary on the Apocalypse (Victorinus)
he mentions the seven churches of paul
but
not the ones in the apocalypse
his version didn't have them
he mentions the seven churches of paul
but
not the ones in the apocalypse
his version didn't have them
victorinus does not mention antipas
There have been a number of recent threads on the issues of dispensationalism on TOL. Nang, a woman, recently got booted out and she was critical of dispensationalism from the point of view of traditional Calvinism. I am not sure what she wrote that got her booted out. But it would seem that more attention here is paid to critical points made against dispensationalism when the writer is coming from within the Church and not from outside the Church.
On the issue that the Book of Revelation adds new doctrines not in other books of the Bible, most of the doctrines in Revelation are not entirely new but Revelation adds important doctrines to other New Testament doctrines. For example, II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 and Luke 13: 18-21, plus some verses in I and II Timothy (II Timothy 3: 4,-5,7-8, 4: 3, for example) predict a falling away from sound doctrine. Revelation 18: 23 adds that the voices of Christ and those who are his are no longer heard, and Revelation 18: 2 describes the multitude who claim to be Christians, after this falling away, as Babylon, saying it is inhabited by devils and foul spirits, and Revelation 18: 4 calls those who belong to Christ out of Babylon, lest they be partakers of Babylon's judgment.
A big reason why Revelation is not liked is because so much of it is written in the language of metaphor, and many in the churches have been taught that all scripture must be interpreted literally and not "spiritualized."
In addition, the doctrine on the remnant is found in Revelation (Revelation 7:1-8, 14: 1-5, and Revelation 12: 17. The remnant is found in Romans 9: 27 and in Romans 11: 1-5, but there the remnant is from Isaiah 10: 20-22, and can be seen as the remnant of Old Covenant Israel. Although the principle of the remnant in Old Covenant Israel is the same as in New Covenant Israel, the two references in Revelation are to a remnant in the end time, during the era of the New Covenant. Revelation 7: 1-8 and 14: 1-5 are called the 144,000 but it is a remnant in the end times of the period of the New Covenant. The 144,000 is not a timeless allegory to all saved people of all times.
The Church has not taught the principle of the remnant, that God has at several times, used a remnant to began again his plan of redemption when the multitude has fallen into false doctrines and false practices. Though I do not know exactly where he is coming from, Frank McEleny in May 2015 published a book, The Fall of Christendom and the Separation of the Remnant: Are You A Part of God's Remnant?
On the issue that the Book of Revelation adds new doctrines not in other books of the Bible, most of the doctrines in Revelation are not entirely new but Revelation adds important doctrines to other New Testament doctrines. For example, II Thessalonians 2: 3-7 and Luke 13: 18-21, plus some verses in I and II Timothy (II Timothy 3: 4,-5,7-8, 4: 3, for example) predict a falling away from sound doctrine. Revelation 18: 23 adds that the voices of Christ and those who are his are no longer heard, and Revelation 18: 2 describes the multitude who claim to be Christians, after this falling away, as Babylon, saying it is inhabited by devils and foul spirits, and Revelation 18: 4 calls those who belong to Christ out of Babylon, lest they be partakers of Babylon's judgment.
A big reason why Revelation is not liked is because so much of it is written in the language of metaphor, and many in the churches have been taught that all scripture must be interpreted literally and not "spiritualized."
In addition, the doctrine on the remnant is found in Revelation (Revelation 7:1-8, 14: 1-5, and Revelation 12: 17. The remnant is found in Romans 9: 27 and in Romans 11: 1-5, but there the remnant is from Isaiah 10: 20-22, and can be seen as the remnant of Old Covenant Israel. Although the principle of the remnant in Old Covenant Israel is the same as in New Covenant Israel, the two references in Revelation are to a remnant in the end time, during the era of the New Covenant. Revelation 7: 1-8 and 14: 1-5 are called the 144,000 but it is a remnant in the end times of the period of the New Covenant. The 144,000 is not a timeless allegory to all saved people of all times.
The Church has not taught the principle of the remnant, that God has at several times, used a remnant to began again his plan of redemption when the multitude has fallen into false doctrines and false practices. Though I do not know exactly where he is coming from, Frank McEleny in May 2015 published a book, The Fall of Christendom and the Separation of the Remnant: Are You A Part of God's Remnant?
the internet is bringing the good news to all nations
in every language
it may not look the way you want it to look
but
it is there for everyone to see and hear
there will be no excuses
in every language
it may not look the way you want it to look
but
it is there for everyone to see and hear
there will be no excuses
Yes, the Open Source movement within the Internet brings with it freedom of speech. All kinds of false Christian doctrines can be promoted on Internet sites as well as the truth from scripture and the Holy Spirit. As McEleny's 2015 book title says there is a separation of the remnant and that remnant is using the Internet now to communicate, not only with others, but with itself, that is, remnant people scattered communicate with one another on the Internet.
But there is now a reaction against the Open Source movement and against freedom of speech on the Internet. It is likely to become harder and harder to find free blog sites or free social media sites that will allow posting of any Bible studies, whether remnant or Church-centered.
But there is now a reaction against the Open Source movement and against freedom of speech on the Internet. It is likely to become harder and harder to find free blog sites or free social media sites that will allow posting of any Bible studies, whether remnant or Church-centered.
your job is to promote your truth while you still can
There is precious little in Revelation that cannot be found in the Old Testament. For this reason alone I can understand its inclusion in accepted cannon.
it is in
and
that is all you have to understand
more are moved by it
than
by the rest of the bible
One is Amnos and one is Arnion: know and understand the difference according to the scripture writings and you will know why the Son of God has only one faithful witness among men, (and it was not the "Antipas" of 92CE from your other thread). :chuckle:
john the baptist
Like this:
John 1:29
29. The next day Yochanan sees Yeshua coming unto him, and says, Behold the Amnos of Elohim, which takes up-away the sin of the world.
Acts 8:32 (Isaiah 53:7 LXX-Septuagint)
32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like an amnos dumb before the shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
John 21:15
15. When therefore they had supped, Yeshua said unto Shimon Peter, Shimon, son of Yochanan, love you me more than these? He says to him, Yea, Master, you know that I love you. He says unto him, Pasture my arnia.
just search the bible for lamb
27 out of 33 are from the apocalypse
john the baptist is the only one who refers to Jesus as the lamb of God
EVERY instance in the apocalypse is arnion. :crackup:
He that has the bride is the groom.
