glassjester
Well-known member
Irrelevant fact.
"Most fossilized animals died in water."
does not mean...
"Most animals in water become fossilized."
Just like saying, "All apples are fruit."
does not mean...
"All fruits are apples."
Interesting find that further shows the relation between dinosaurs and birds
- Thread starter Greg Jennings
- Start date
Irrelevant fact.
"Most fossilized animals died in water."
does not mean...
"Most animals in water become fossilized."
Just like saying, "All apples are fruit."
does not mean...
"All fruits are apples."
Darwinists hate reading.
The issue is the evidence. What we find in the rocks is billions of dead things buried in sediment-rich, cement-rich water.
Looking at today's processes and saying that fossilization is "rare" does nothing to explain the evidence, while the proposal of a dramatic, global event does provide an explanation.
What you need is an explanation of what we see in the rocks, not a semantic game.
I see you have retracted your claim.
And since you don't seem to have any unambiguous evidence of a global flood at any time in the history of the planet, I guess you must be sorry you ever bothered us with it.
Thanks for your retraction and apology. Integrity is a most honorable quality.
Stuart
6days
New member
The dinosaur article I mentioned suggested that the dinosaurs drowned. Yes... things drown in water, but water itself does not fossilize creatures. Fossilization normally requires RAPID burial in sediment, protecting the organism from scavengers and oxidation.
Billions of dead creatures including even soft body parts are evidence that fits the global flood model where the earths crust ripped open. Creatures were rapidly buried... jellyfish, turtles 'doing it', dinosaurs, whale pods, fish giving birth, giant ferns, and drowning dinosaurs.
glassjester
Well-known member
But no evidence suggests that they all died at the same time.
6days
New member
The best evidence is the inerrant truth of scripture... and it (Noah's flood) is the best fit for the physical evidence, of drowned, fossilized dinosaurs. Dinosaurs worldwide according to the secular article appear to have drowned and then rapidly buried in sediment. Secularists want to believe, this could have been many independent events. As a Christian... its exciting to see how evidence from the world around us is consistent with His Word.
Greg Jennings
New member
"Wind and other weathering conditions wash away sediment on land, depositing it in bodies of water. For this reason, fossils of sea creatures are more common than those of land creatures. Land animals and plants that have been preserved are found mostly in sediments in calm lakes, rivers, and estuaries."
Read more: http://www.scienceclarified.com/Ex-Ga/Fossil-and-Fossilization.html#
Ooohhh......I don't think that there would be calm waters during a worldwide flood, eh?
I look forward to you admitting your egregious error.
Do you think that scavengers normally eat bones? They don't, though bones can be broken down by weathering processes
Greg Jennings
New member
I'm now 100% sure you are clueless as to what constitutes "evidence."
6days
New member
Lets compare the part you omitted from that blogger to what I said.
Greg's Link : "fossilization will occur if an animal or plant dies and is quickly covered over with moist sediment. This prevents the animal or plant from being eaten by other organisms or from undergoing natural decay through exposure to oxygen and bacteria"
6days : " Fossilization normally requires RAPID burial in sediment, protecting the organism from scavengers and oxidation"
Ha... You make me smile because I know you try so hard. But lets take a look at the evidence and go beyond what your blogger believes.
"The remains of an organism that survive natural biological and physical processes must then become quickly buried by sediments. The probability for an organism to become fossilized increases if it already lives in the sediment , and those on the sea floor are more readily fossilized than those floating or swimming above it. Catastrophic burial with a rapid influx of sediment is necessary to preserve delicate complete animals such as crinoids or starfish. "
http://www.fossilmuseum.net/fossilrecord/fossilization/fossilization.htm
Lets take a look at evidence of rapid catastrophic burial. When a creature dies in the ocean its carcass is normally consumed by other animals, and bacteria, very rapidly. Special conditions must exist for something to become fossilized. And we seldom if ever find something in ocean sediment that is in the process of being fossilized. Yet, throughout the world we have some areas where sea creatures have been almost perfectly preserved in fossil form, including soft tissue. Here in Canada, we have an area called Burgess shale with abundant fossilized sea creatures with even eyes and intestines preserved.
Scientific journals often have articles supporting the Biblical creation model which includes the global flood. (Although the evolutionary based journals of course interpret evidence from their world view). For example, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, has an article of a worldwide pattern of fossils.
2012, Mechanism for Burgess Shale-type preservation. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Gaines, R. R.
Paleontologists wonder why fossils have such remarkable preservation in areas like Burgess shale in Canada and Chengjiang Shale in China and other areas. Researcher Gaines says, "My initial hypothesis was validated by a consistent and worldwide pattern." And this pattern included "rapid entombment of soft-bodied organisms in sediments" . .He also assumes the conditions that must have existed in a "global ocean". The author also says a cause would be "rapid entombment" by "bottom-flowing density currents."
Besides the journal, also see
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-03/uosd-mfb030712.php
If Noahs flood really happened one of the evidences would be billions of dead things rapidly buried in layers of sediment found throughout the world including marine fossils in the mountain ranges. And what is the evidence? As described in many journals... we find billions of dead things well preserved due to rapid burial and found throughout the world... and we do find marine fossils even in the highest mountains.
Gary Parker, biologist and paleontologist says, "I’ve mentioned that, because of the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence, many evolutionists are now calling themselves neo-catastrophists. They want nothing to do with old-fashioned catastrophism (Noah’s Flood!), but they agree that most layers of fossil-bearing rock were produced rapidly and broadly by flooding on a catastrophic scale"
Also, Greg... The fossil record has LOTS of evidence of critters being fossilized while carrying about their regular day to day 'business'. Here is a fun post I made recently here in TOL
47 million years and still doing it (New scientist)
or
“Turtles fossilised in sex embrace” (BBC)
or
copulating vertebrates fossilized “in flagrante delicto”(Nature)
or
Coitus Interruptus: Ancient Turtle Sex Fossilized (LiveScience)
or
Caught in the act: the first record of copulating fossil vertebrates (Biology Letters)
http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2012/06/15/rsbl.2012.0361.full
or, how about....
"there really is no reason to enter the fossil record while you are mating" Lead researcher, Walter Joyce
Nine pairs of fossilized turtles have been found 'doing it'.
Observations....
1. A catastrophic event (flood) must have rapidly buried these turtles in sediment before they had a chance to cease and desist.
2. Fossilization happened rapidly. They are extremely well preserved.
3. Thousands of exquisitely preserved fossils are in the same area including "insects and feathers (birds) that still have hints of their original colors.”
4. The turtles are very similar to turtles that exist today, (the Carettochelys insculpta) although the fossilized ones are much larger.
The observations are all expected within the creation / flood model.
Other examples of rapid and catastrophic burials include a whole pod of fossilized whales, along with dolphins and swordfish. Beached whales don't normally fossilize, correct? There are many examples around the world of fossil graveyards...many animals mixed together. Or we have the high altitude Gobi desert with many fossilzed creatures including 2 dinosaurs fighting, mammals, lizards and even oviraptor nests with eggs.
The fossil record worldwide provides incredible evidence of the catastrophic global flood...and, of sudden appearance of the various created kinds. In the beginning, God...
Greg Greg, Yes of course!..... Even on the ocean floor it takes about ten years until the bones are consumed by bacteria, tube worms, etc.Greg Jennings said:
Greg Jennings
New member
How can you be this thick???.......
Do you not realize that the bottom of a body of water (especially an ocean) is just a big expanse of soft sediment? Burial in those conditions HAPPENS BY DEFAULT.
Also you said this:
In it you clearly claim that the bottom of a body of water is not a good place for fossilization. Now, you are reversing course on that by admitting that Crinoids can only be preserved through "catastrophic burial" aka, an underwater mudslide [happens every day, tens of times a day; your flood wouldn't affect deep water creatures like stemmed Crinoids anyway, genius]
Your questions are kind of stupid, tbh. No, of course a beached whale doesn't normally fossilize. But it certainly could happen. And if it did, it would not be evidence of a GLOBAL FLOOD. For that, you'd need your creationist scientist buddies to prove that in a certain layer of rock found worldwide, there were a huge amount of beaching of cetaceans around the globe, as evidenced by fossils. Is that what we see? I didn't think so.
On top of that, you'd have to prove that the certain layer of rock in question was 4000-5000 years old, otherwise your global flood would violate your precious timeline.
But a whale that sinks to the bottom and is slowly buried by a sediment flow from a continental shelf? Fossilization odds are high
That's why I told you that animals that die in the ocean have a better chance of fossilization. Not every single one will get fossilized, but a significant number will because of the unique conditions in the marine benthic region
6days
New member
Do a wee bit of research. Fossilization normally requires RAPID burial. Things that float to the bottom of the ocean are eaten...bones and all.
However you can't give even one example of and large catastrophic burial fossilizing anything in modern times. Fossilization can happen rapidly. It does not require eons of time. It requires the correct conditions. I have seen a tree root fossilized in hours. We have evidence of catastrophic burial everywhere on earth.
I'm amazed t how much stuff you 'know'. Can you give a single example? No...of course not. I can sure give you an example of a dead whale floating on the surface though... But you could also use google yourself.Greg Jennings said:
The fossil record provides an awesome record for the truth of God's Word. Sudden appearance... catastrophic burial.
Hey... and you can give a "yes" that your blogger agreed with what I had said.
Greg Jennings
New member
6, that is retarded. Here is proof:
"Diatomaceous deposits in the Miocene–Pliocene Pisco Formation contain abundant whales preserved in pristine condition (bones articulated or at least closely associated), in some cases including preserved baleen. The well-preserved whales indicate rapid burial. The 346 whales within ∼1.5 km2 of surveyed surface were not buried as an event, but were distributed uninterrupted through an 80-m-thick sedimentary section. The diatomaceous sediment lacks repeating primary laminations, but instead is mostly massive, with irregular laminations and speckles. There is no evidence for bioturbation by invertebrates in the whale-bearing sediment. Current depositional models do not account for the volume of diatomaceous sediments or the taphonomic features of the whales. These taphonomic and sedimentary features suggest that rapid burial due to high diatom accumulation, in part by lateral advection into protected, shallow embayments, is responsible for the superb preservation of these whales, leading to a higher upper limit on phytoplankton accumulation rates than previously documented."
http://m.geology.gsapubs.org/content/32/2/165.abstract
Do you understand what that means? It means that "rapid burial" occurred via relatively quick accumulation of diatom skeletons. Not a flood, and not a catastrophic event. Rapid burial occurred via natural, everyday processes and preserved over 300 whales in one regional location.....at the bottom of the ocean......which you've been saying is impossible.
That's an oxymoron. Tell me, was this tree root fossilized using electricity? Because that's not exactly natural, now is it? I don't think people were dragging telephone wires across dinosaur bones, now were they?
Please provide the tree root study that you spoke of, so that we can all check it out.
See above. Proceed to eat words
And for your info, I 'know' these things because I study them everyday. Doubt you've ever spent a day doing real research on anything.
Clearly, as everyone is showing you, it really doesn't. At least not your version. And because you don't know what "rapid burial" encompasses, you think that "blogger" agrees with you. Sigh.The fossil record provides an awesome record for the truth of God's Word. Sudden appearance... catastrophic burial.
Hey... and you can give a "yes" that your blogger agreed with what I had said.
Just one apology was enough. You don't need to beat yourself up over it. We can move on.
We could discuss what has really happened in the past 10,000 years on earth. Or indeed in the past 4.56 ± 0.05 billion years.
Stuart
I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that a global flood within the past few thousand years is completely incompatible with evidence from bristlecone pine dendrochronology, has made no difference to Antarctic and Greenland icecores or their isotopic data, is absent in the lack of recent genetic bottlenecks in species thriving today, has left no global mark consistent with a recent mass extinction event (unlike, for example, the iridium layer at the KT boundary), has apparently not affected the continuous residence of Aboriginals in Australia for many tens of thousands of years, and, supposedly, involved the engineering of a wooden boat so huge that it would require a massive steel framework to stop it twisting open at the joints between the planks, using steel that was not available at the alleged time of this non-flood.
Are you comfortable talking about any of that?
Stuart
Of course.
However, given that you run for the hills upon being presented with evidence according to the topic, we know you'll do the same when your assumptions are challenged in other areas.
Learn to deal with what's in front of you. :up:
6days
New member
Yes... this is the pod of whale fossils I previously mentioned. They found whales up to about 40' long (13 meter) in a single layer of diatomite sedimentary rock. This type of sediment normally takes hundreds of years to accumulate a centimeter. The evidences of the rapid deposition are many...lack of bioturbation... lack of barnacle build-up, and wormholes.... and the remarkably pristine condition of even softer*tissue like the baleen.Greg Jennings said:
Greg, the rapid burial was not "via natural, everyday processes ". The authors admits that "current depositional models do not account for the volume of diatomaceous sediments". They say the pristine condition leads them to the conclusion the whales were rapidly buried within weeks or months at the most. And, these whales were not at "the bottom of the ocean" as you claim. The authors suggest this happened in shallow embayments since other creatures were found with the whales such as penguins and sloths.
Yes... high tension wires fell on wet ground. No, its not normal for things to be fossilized in hours. But as I said, fossilization requires the correct conditions, and not thousands of years. For example there have been human artifacts fossilized under normal conditions such as a hat and a bag of flour.Greg Jennings said:
??? haaaaa. You make me smile. I said nothing about a study. I said I seen a root that had been fossilized in hours.Greg Jennings said:
Great! Then you 'know' fossilization normally requires RAPID burial. Things that float to the bottom of the ocean are eaten...bones and all.Greg Jennings said:
The buried whales provide awesome evidence of a catastrophic event, rapid burial..... not slow gradual processes. The Bible mentions such an event.
Right, so that's that then. You have accepted that this global flood of which you speak is a fantasy. The evidence says that overwhelmingly.
Not sure why I need to do any running. The evidence has disproved your position, not mine.
Stuart
Making things up exposes how desperate you are to avoid a discussion of the evidence.
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