Oatmeal, this idea of yours that John's water baptism was replaced with Spirit baptism is not supported by Scripture, see post # 32, above.
ECT II Timothy 2:15 How?
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Oatmeal, this idea of yours that John's water baptism was replaced with Spirit baptism is not supported by Scripture, see post # 32, above.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Looking at verses 11 and 12 is not enough
We must read what is written.
You missed the word "but" in Matthew 3:11-12
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Not only so, John does not state that the he that cometh after him who is mightier than John would baptize with water. That mightier one would baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
I Peter 3:20-21
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Note the phrase, "the like figure" that is, figuratively, not literally.
Likewise note that there is no reference to literal water baptism
How does water baptism save anyone?
Is water baptism greater than Jesus Christ's self sacrifice to save us from our sins and then God raising him from the dead?
Acts 1:4-5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What did Peter say?
a. Be baptized in water
b. Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ,( that is all that his name represents. His perfect life, his love to die for us, his burial, his resurrection, his showing himself alive by many infallible proofs, his ascension into heaven, his being seated at the right hand of the throne of God and his giving of the gift of holy spirit)
Which do you think is more effectual to the end of saving anyone?
Water? or Jesus Christ?
oatmeal
Well-known member
II Timothy does use the phrase "word of truth" as does Ephesians 1:13
Thank you, John 17:17
So, do you read scripture? Do you use a dictionary to look up words not familiar to you? Do you check for other verses on the same subject? do you take context as a tool for clearer understanding? Etc.
What is this phrase "word of truth" referring to?
God? Jesus Christ? scripture?
the word "word" in "word of truth" is the word "logos" Is logos a person or the scripture in II Timothy 2:15, are we to rightly divide God or Jesus Christ or the scriptures?
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In other words, rather than base your entire notion on one word - the word "but" - you based it on all the passages I cited as to the sense of John's having referred to three baptisms, none of them replacing the other; each having their specific role within that unit.
You then scoured the OT thoroughly as to Israel's water rituals and their significance.
Further, you even read my mind through this read into things crystal ball of yours and concluded I was asserting that water baptism saves.
I suggest you set aside your one word wonder, together with your reading into other's words and try this instead - 2 Timothy 3:16-17's "All...." sir.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Acts 1:5 could not be any clearer.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Jesus stated that John's water baptism was to be replaced bapism with the Holy Ghost.
If you wish to ignore the word "but" that is your choice and your error.
Acts 2:38 does not mention water, it does not speak of being baptized in water, it speaks of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Now, you have choice, you can say water is the means of your salvation or that all that the name of Jesus Christ means is the means of your salvation.
Interplanner
Well-known member
To be immersed in Christ is to be in the Spirit, when you compare Eph 5 and Col 3.
My approach to the study of anything in life I am curious about the inner workings of is the same when it to comes to my study of any word, passage, or passages in Scripture - through the seeking out of recurrent patterns manifested by the passages, towards attempting to trace them back to what general rules of thumb as to how things work they might point me back to.
Obviously, you did not study out the significance and role of water rituals in - now note carefully - in Israel's religious life.
Fact is, I view Ephesians 4:5's "one baptism" as referring to 1 Corinthians 12:13's "by one Spirit."
I have held to that for many years and can defend it well.
That is not the issue I am addressing.
You think I am asserting what you think I am asserting, out of your supposed "one size fits all" gospel notion.
Yours is the reasoning into a things that reasons Romans 4:4 into agreement with James 2:24, and visa-versa.
And before you confuse the principle I am talking about with the example I am seeking to point out to you, no: I am not talking about Romans 4 and or James 2. Rather; about this reasoning into a thing your posts are rampant in the recurrent pattern of.
Personally, I believe you truly "desire to look into these things."
This desire is manifested in your recurrent pattern, in your words here. Each post, you come back to announce what your restudy of an issue resulted in. As with your words about that word "but," for example.
So, I do not see that it is your heart that is wrong, rather; that your approach is off.
I see that we should compare approaches. Sooner or later, you will note I no longer engage some people on here. This right here is why I cut them off.
They assert they are going by the passages on all issues. But it is clear they not only are not, but have no interest in studying out contrasting view and its passages when presented to them.
No sense in continuing with such. I'd rather compare notes, and explore issues with those into 2 Timothy 3:16-17 meaning what it asserts - "All Scripture is" - all - one - needs - towards - being - "throughly furnished unto all good works."
You up for that, well, then ok. Let's help one another explore.
You and yours up for one word wonders, books based notions, the Greek this, the Greek that, and so called "best translations" notions...all the while asserting otherwise, despite the obvious witness of your recurrent pattern?
Well, no time for you and yours in these things - to the curb you must go - Matthew 4:4, and say hello to your new companion - say hello to John W, lol
oatmeal
Well-known member
Well, I am not as good as Jesus Christ who stated the following in
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
He was based his understanding of the law on things far smaller than a three letter word.
So what do you think about that?
If it must be this way between us, I'll see your one word, and raise you the full house of His Matthew 4:4 assertion.
oatmeal
Well-known member
If it must be this way between us, I'll see your one word, and raise you the full house of His Matthew 4:4 assertion.
that is the truth, however, unless you read and note every word, you will not be doing what Matthew 4:4 exhorts.
Every word in scripture is a word God chose to have holy men of God speak and write down. II Peter 1:21
If you look at the long list of examples I posted, you will see that tradition does not pay attention to every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, let alone every jot and tittle.
Oh, by the way, since Jesus stated that jots and tittles are important, why are you complaining about me reading the word "but"?
What is the mininum length of word, by counting letters that you consider important?
"but" is a three letter word which you think is not important.
How about the word "the"? Do you avoid reading all the "the" in scripture?
How about "at", "on", "in", "and" ?
Let's look at
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
Let's remove all the short words that are not worth your time.
verily unto Till heaven earth pass, tittle shall wise pass from till fulfilled.
Let's look at your verse, Matthew 4:4
" But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Now, let's look at without word of three letters or less.
answered said, written, shall live bread alone, every word that proceedeth mouth
Looks like you are missing some important information.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
"God" is a three letter word, just like "but"
Maybe short words are important?
Yes, if we believe Matthew 4:4 then short words are as important as long words.
Wouldn't you agree?
Seems to be pretty explicit.
2 Timothy 2:14-17 Modern English Version (MEV)
An Approved Workman
14 Remind them of these things, commanding them before the Lord that they not argue about words, which leads to nothing of value and to the destruction of those who hear them.
15 Study to show yourself approved by God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But avoid profane foolish babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness,
17 and their word will spread like gangrene: Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2 Timothy 2:14-17 Modern English Version (MEV)
An Approved Workman
14 Remind them of these things, commanding them before the Lord that they not argue about words, which leads to nothing of value and to the destruction of those who hear them.
15 Study to show yourself approved by God, a workman who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But avoid profane foolish babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness,
17 and their word will spread like gangrene: Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
What is the word of truth?
Arsenios
Well-known member
An accurate translation helps... I corrected yours...
The first baptism by John was unto repentance from sin...
The Baptism of Christ is INTO Christ...
"For everyone...
that hath been baptized into Christ...
hath put on Christ."
Why did Christ have John baptize Him?
Is not Christ's Baptism the Baptism for US who are being baptized INTO Christ?
Are we not to follow Christ?
Did not Christ's Baptism result in the Holy Spirit DESCENDING from Heaven and ABIDING on Him as He emerged from the waters of the Jordan?
Is not THAT Baptism the Baptism that WE should prefer?
Later with Cornelius? The Holoy Spirit falling upon his party and their speaking in tongues is clearly NOT a baptism...
BECAUSE...
AFTER the Spirit's descent and the giving of tongues, they STILL had to be baptized and Peter ordered that they indeed BE Baptized...
It helps to read the Scripture...
Neither...
They are simply different...
Repentance is preparation for entry into Christ...
John prepared them...
Christ inducted them as members into His Body...
Arsenios
oatmeal
Well-known member
Avoiding the profane foolish babblings is simpler when we rightly divide the word of truth.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Scripture is the word of truth.
The written word, scripture, is the truth in words.
God did not give us a picture book of truth, but words of truth to learn, rightly divide and believe.
Words are simpler to duplicate, pictures would have required an artist.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
Yet, there are passages in scripture where the words make envisioning what was happening rather simple.
David against Goliath is relatively simple to visualize.
I Samuel 17
OCTOBER23
New member
OATMEAL said,
If only two were taken, then Noah may have destroyed some species when he later sacrificed some the beasts and fowls of the air, which would have negated the whole purpose of gathering them.
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1. God can make more animals anywhere like Kangaroos in Australia.
2. NOAH may have taken ONLY BABY ANIMALS on the ark.
If only two were taken, then Noah may have destroyed some species when he later sacrificed some the beasts and fowls of the air, which would have negated the whole purpose of gathering them.
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1. God can make more animals anywhere like Kangaroos in Australia.
2. NOAH may have taken ONLY BABY ANIMALS on the ark.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Thanks for your post.
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The word "with" is the Greek word "en" meaning in, a remaining with, fully in.
As renew our minds to the word of truth, we are transformed from the weak, corrupt old man nature to the new nature of the inner man, that measure of faith, the gift of pneuma hagion. Romans 12:2 ...
John the Baptist baptized Jesus Christ to fulfill the law in both their lives.
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the law
Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
We did follow Christ.
Romans 6:3-11
And we continue to live in Christ
The phrase "baptized with Holy Ghost", or "baptism in pneuma hagion" is used only in reference to the initial outpouring of the gift of pneuma hagion on the day of Pentecost.
After that, it is the baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
The reading of Acts 10:47 might lead some readers to conclude that Peter ordered water baptism for the household of Cornelius.
But those who have been taught scripture and how to rightly divide it also read Peter's recounting of those events in Acts 11
Acts 11:15-17
" And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"
Peter changed his mind when he remembered the word of the Lord, specifically the word of the Lord in Acts 1:5
Yes, it does.
You are determined to read into things; I'll give that much.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, indeed I did say that.
Indeed God can make children of Abraham from stones
Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Luke 3:8
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
If we are going to show ourselves approved unto God, then we must concern ourselves with what is written, not our guesses about what may have happened.
Did any species get destroyed when Noah sacrificed those animals?
Scripture does not given any such indication.
Since seven pairs of the clean animals were gathered, offering one in sacrifice to God would not end the species.