ECT II Timothy 2:15 How?
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oatmeal
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From another thread.
We must first of all, learn to read what is written.
Until we do that, it is impossible to rightly divide what is written.
We must first of all, learn to read what is written.
Until we do that, it is impossible to rightly divide what is written.
oatmeal
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oatmeal
Well-known member
oatmeal
Well-known member
Learning to read what is written.
Genesis 7:1-9
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
How many of each did God tell Noah to collect?
of the clean beasts sevens. Why plural? why not collect seven of each of the clean beasts? Because God meant plural, seven pairs, male and female.
When they were led into the ark by how many were they led into the ark? By sevens? No, by twos.
Is collecting and leading the same thing? No.
He collected by sevens, the male and female.
They were led two and two
If only seven of the clean beasts were collected it would be impossible for the clean beasts to be led in by twos because seven is an odd number, not an even number (a multiple of two)
How many of each of the clean beasts were collected? Seven pairs, seven pairs of male and female.
If only two were taken, then Noah may have destroyed some species when he later sacrificed some the beasts and fowls of the air, which would have negated the whole purpose of gathering them.
Genesis 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
The Lamsa Bible reads seven pairs
Genesis 7:1-9
7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
How many of each did God tell Noah to collect?
of the clean beasts sevens. Why plural? why not collect seven of each of the clean beasts? Because God meant plural, seven pairs, male and female.
When they were led into the ark by how many were they led into the ark? By sevens? No, by twos.
Is collecting and leading the same thing? No.
He collected by sevens, the male and female.
They were led two and two
If only seven of the clean beasts were collected it would be impossible for the clean beasts to be led in by twos because seven is an odd number, not an even number (a multiple of two)
How many of each of the clean beasts were collected? Seven pairs, seven pairs of male and female.
If only two were taken, then Noah may have destroyed some species when he later sacrificed some the beasts and fowls of the air, which would have negated the whole purpose of gathering them.
Genesis 8:20
And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
The Lamsa Bible reads seven pairs
oatmeal
Well-known member
How many here were taught that Noah collected only two of each animal? I was.
How many does scripture say were collected?
Even if you don't believe seven pairs, it remains indisputable that God had Noah collect the clean beast by sevens.
Why collect seven, then discard five?
In order to keep genetic diversity within a species, more than just one male and female would be needed.
How many does scripture say were collected?
Even if you don't believe seven pairs, it remains indisputable that God had Noah collect the clean beast by sevens.
Why collect seven, then discard five?
In order to keep genetic diversity within a species, more than just one male and female would be needed.
oatmeal
Well-known member
If our Sunday school teachers did not read sevens, when it is plain to any reader who actually reads what is written, what else have they missed? What other errors have been promoted as gospel?
That would be the subject of another thread, but it does illustrate the need to read and remember what is actually written.
That would be the subject of another thread, but it does illustrate the need to read and remember what is actually written.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Another example of reading what is written.
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Which is the preferred baptism?
The water baptism of John?
or
The spiritual baptism that would be instituted later by the one who is greater than John?
Which permanently destroys the chaff in one's life?
Which one is more powerful?
Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Which is the preferred baptism?
The water baptism of John?
or
The spiritual baptism that would be instituted later by the one who is greater than John?
Which permanently destroys the chaff in one's life?
Which one is more powerful?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Mark 1:7-8
And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
The word "but" is a small word with a huge meaning.
"But" sets that which follows with that which precedes the but.
The later baptism is greater than the former.
Spiritual baptism is greater than water.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Luke 3:16-17
John 1:32-34
John recognized and stated clearly that the spiritual baptism which Jesus Christ would institute was far greater than water.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Jesus Christ stated that spiritual baptism was to replace John's water baptism
Acts 1:4-5
And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
John truly baptized with water. Past tense, John the Baptist was beheaded, he is dead, he is no longer baptizing anyone.
But Jesus speaks of a greater baptism to replace the former and lesser baptism.
Is there reason to believe that the spiritual baptism Jesus Christ spoke of would be a far greater baptism than the one John used?
Any scripture to indicate that?
Was everyone up to speed with that change and replacement?
No, not everyone.
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The following is lost on those endless morons who right off assert anyone who even remotely holds to some aspect Darby had supposedly held to - "got that from Darby."
I do not hold to 2 Timothy 2:15 as being a reference to dividing the Bible.
I study things through their recurrent patterns for what they point back to as to the various components and or aspects behind a thing; that result in making a thing what it is.
In elementary school Biology, that is referred to as dissecting a thing towards attempting to better understand its whole through those various parts said whole is comprised of.
When I study out 2 Timothy 2:15 itself from this principle, what I find Paul is talking about is the need for Timothy to be careful to lay things out to others as Paul had laid them out to him.
In other words, the "rightly" refers to that standard that Paul relates in that chapter and elsewhere and that is his desire that Timothy hold to.
In this, Paul has related much more abut what he is talking about in that passage than "the Greek" or some "better translation" notion, is able to help determine, though, boy do people flock to that in their ignorance of the simple fact that words derive and or communicate their intended meaning or sense, simply by where, why, in relation to who, what, when, and why, they are being used.
In this, though it is obvious to me that Paul is not talking about dividing the Bible, at the same time, I cannot but help note the impossibility for Timothy, of following through on Paul's instruction without first laying out the Scripture as to what goes where.
In other words, as to Scripture's contrasts and or distinctions, that Timothy might by that be able to live out the following:
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Say what some will about what Paul is not talking about, the fact is obvious: those two in verse 17, failed to rightly lay things out as to goes where.
Those two failed the standard as to "rightly" that Paul has been writing about all through out Romans thru Philemon, as this issue was that much ever an issue men were then distorting in their ignorance and its resulting wisdom in its own conceits.
For as he had related many years earlier in 2 Corinthians 4, concerning his own sense in his own ministry as to this very issue:
1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
Note the unavoidable "dividing" of distinctions there that not handling the word of God deceitfully, demands be one's distinctions between things:
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
If some fool is "saying the resurrection is past already," then what is he doing - he is wrongly laying out the Word of truth to himself, as to its obvious divisions; here, as to the timing of a thing, and is thus blind. And he is then wrongly laying out the Word of truth to others. His then, is vain and profane babblings.
Paul was referring to the "right" preaching of the Word to others. "Right" as determined by the standard Paul asserts he had shared with Timothy.
And that requires the "right division" of things.
Most any basically smart elementary school biology class student would know this...
I do not hold to 2 Timothy 2:15 as being a reference to dividing the Bible.
I study things through their recurrent patterns for what they point back to as to the various components and or aspects behind a thing; that result in making a thing what it is.
In elementary school Biology, that is referred to as dissecting a thing towards attempting to better understand its whole through those various parts said whole is comprised of.
When I study out 2 Timothy 2:15 itself from this principle, what I find Paul is talking about is the need for Timothy to be careful to lay things out to others as Paul had laid them out to him.
In other words, the "rightly" refers to that standard that Paul relates in that chapter and elsewhere and that is his desire that Timothy hold to.
In this, Paul has related much more abut what he is talking about in that passage than "the Greek" or some "better translation" notion, is able to help determine, though, boy do people flock to that in their ignorance of the simple fact that words derive and or communicate their intended meaning or sense, simply by where, why, in relation to who, what, when, and why, they are being used.
In this, though it is obvious to me that Paul is not talking about dividing the Bible, at the same time, I cannot but help note the impossibility for Timothy, of following through on Paul's instruction without first laying out the Scripture as to what goes where.
In other words, as to Scripture's contrasts and or distinctions, that Timothy might by that be able to live out the following:
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Say what some will about what Paul is not talking about, the fact is obvious: those two in verse 17, failed to rightly lay things out as to goes where.
Those two failed the standard as to "rightly" that Paul has been writing about all through out Romans thru Philemon, as this issue was that much ever an issue men were then distorting in their ignorance and its resulting wisdom in its own conceits.
For as he had related many years earlier in 2 Corinthians 4, concerning his own sense in his own ministry as to this very issue:
1. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2. But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
Note the unavoidable "dividing" of distinctions there that not handling the word of God deceitfully, demands be one's distinctions between things:
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
If some fool is "saying the resurrection is past already," then what is he doing - he is wrongly laying out the Word of truth to himself, as to its obvious divisions; here, as to the timing of a thing, and is thus blind. And he is then wrongly laying out the Word of truth to others. His then, is vain and profane babblings.
Paul was referring to the "right" preaching of the Word to others. "Right" as determined by the standard Paul asserts he had shared with Timothy.
And that requires the "right division" of things.
Most any basically smart elementary school biology class student would know this...
Hi and there is another verse in Phil 1:10 , " In order for you to TEST the things that are " EXCELLENT / DIFFERING " in order that you may be PURE for ( the ) Day of Christ !!
This verse verb " ye may be " and is in the Present Tense and controlled by the Subjunctive Mood of Possibilities !!
Things that are EXCELLENT as translated by the KJV is the word DIAPHERO and is better translated DIFFERING , or to carry different ways , to be different or to differ ,
And if you want to be PURE and BLAMELESS at the BEMA , obey 2 Tm 2:15 and Phil 1:10 , or LOSE REWARDS !!
The rules I follow are :
#1 , CONTEXT
#2 , HISTORICAL
#3 , DISPENSATIONAL
#4, GRAMMATICAL
#5, CONTEXT , CONTEXT , CONTEXT
DAN P
DP - Paul is not talking about Dispensational issues in Philippians 1:
9. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10. That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
The issue there is the exact same "charity" issue of 1 Corinthians 13, and other passages within Romans thru Philemon, like Romans 12 and Ephesians 4.
The issue there is the issue of Paul's desire that their love abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment as to their dealings with one another.
That an attitude of love toward one another be that which is the greater value in their dealings with each other.
The result of said attitude of love being resulting in their sincerity with one another "in love," as Paul puts it elsewhere, and thus, without offense til the day of Christ.
An attitude of love toward one another will then result in fruits of righteousness; of conduct "as becometh the gospel of Christ," thus Paul's "which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."
As he later relates in that chapter [and into the next one]:
27. Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind
striving together for the faith of the gospel;
You report how you made a pest of yourself in your assembly because some were Mid-Acts this, and some were Acts 9 that - well yours and your kind's type of insisting your view be held or others will constantly be pestered by you about it, is the exact type of lack of grace toward one another that Paul is desiring the Philippians avoid, via a focus on that which is of greater value between us - love - 1 Cor. 13's "more excellent way."
You and Jerry just make that impossible.
I suggest you meditate on Eph. 4:16.
oatmeal
Well-known member
So then, how do you not interpret scripture? II Peter 1:20
How does a person make a distinction what is truth and what is error?
If someone says "I can prove from the scripture that there is no God" would you believe him? How would you know to point out their error?
After all, scripture does say in two places that I know of, "There is no God"
It does say that. But how do you determine what the author meant to include that statement in two different places?
How many animals of each kind did Moses take on the ark with him?
How do you distinguish between a frog and a toad?
How do you distinguish between the various women with the name Mary in scripture? Are they all the same person?
How do you distinguish between all the men named Joseph in scripture?
Do you lump them all together?
What makes each distinct from each other?
How do you divide one from another?
How do you rightly divide one from another?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Those are some of the major issues to consider.
True, but they are not the issue in Philippians 1:10.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Philippians 1:10 KJV
That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
other versions:
KJ21 that ye may approve things that are excellent, and that ye may be sincere and without offense until the Day of Christ,
ASV so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and void of offence unto the day of Christ;
AMP So that you may surely learn to sense what is vital, and approve and prize what is excellent and of real value [recognizing the highest and the best, and distinguishing the moral differences], and that you may be untainted and pure and unerring and blameless [so that with hearts sincere and certain and unsullied, you may approach] the day of Christ [not stumbling nor causing others to stumble].
BRG That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
CEB I pray this so that you will be able to decide what really matters and so you will be sincere and blameless on the day of Christ.
CJB so that you will be able to determine what is best and thus be pure and without blame for the Day of the Messiah,
CEV how to make the right choices. Then you will still be pure and innocent when Christ returns. And until that day,
DARBY that ye may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent, in order that ye may be pure and without offence for Christ's day,
DLNT so that you may be approving the things mattering, in-order-that you might be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
DRA That you may approve the better things, that you may be sincere and without offence unto the day of Christ,
ERV that you will see the difference between what is important and what is not and choose what is important; that you will be pure and blameless for the coming of Christ;
ESV so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
ESVUK so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
EXB that you will ·see the difference between good and bad and will choose the good [L discern/test and prove what is best]; that you will be pure and ·without wrong [blameless] ·for the coming [in the day; v. 6] of Christ;
GNV That ye may allow those things which are best, that ye may be pure, and without offense, until the day of Christ,
GW That way you will be able to determine what is best and be pure and blameless until the day of Christ.
GNT so that you will be able to choose what is best. Then you will be free from all impurity and blame on the Day of Christ.
HCSB so that you can approve the things that are superior and can be pure and blameless in the day of Christ,
ICB that you will see the difference between good and bad and choose the good; that you will be pure and without wrong for the coming of Christ;
ISV so that you may be able to choose what is best and be pure and blameless until the day when the Messiah returns,
PHILLIPS It is only natural that I should feel like this about you all—you are very dear to me. For during the time I was in prison as well as when I was out defending and demonstrating the power of the Gospel we shared together the grace of God. God knows how much I long, with the deepest Christian love and affection, for your companionship. My prayer for you is that you may have still more love—a love that is full of knowledge and wise insight. I want you to be able always to recognise the highest and the best, and to live sincere and blameless lives until the day of Jesus Christ. I want to see your lives full of true goodness, produced by the power that Jesus Christ gives you to the praise and glory of God.
JUB that ye may approve the best, that ye may be sincere and without offense until the day of Christ,
KJV That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
AKJV that ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
LEB so that you may approve what is superior, in order that you may be sincere and blameless in the day of Christ,
TLB for I want you always to see clearly the difference between right and wrong, and to be inwardly clean, no one being able to criticize you from now until our Lord returns.
MSG So this is my prayer: that your love will flourish and that you will not only love much but well. Learn to love appropriately. You need to use your head and test your feelings so that your love is sincere and intelligent, not sentimental gush. Live a lover’s life, circumspect and exemplary, a life Jesus will be proud of: bountiful in fruits from the soul, making Jesus Christ attractive to all, getting everyone involved in the glory and praise of God.
MEV that you may approve things that are excellent so that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
MOUNCE so that you may determine what is essential, and so be pure and without blame on the day of Christ,
NOG That way you will be able to determine what is best and be pure and blameless until the day of Christ.
NABRE to discern what is of value, so that you may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
NASB so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
NCV that you will see the difference between good and bad and will choose the good; that you will be pure and without wrong for the coming of Christ;
NET so that you can decide what is best, and thus be sincere and blameless for the day of Christ,
NIRV Then you will be able to know what is best. Then you will be pure and without blame for the day that Christ returns.
NIV so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
NIVUK so that you may be able to discern what is best and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
NKJV that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,
NLV I pray that you will know what is the very best. I pray that you will be true and without blame until the day Christ comes again.
NLT For I want you to understand what really matters, so that you may live pure and blameless lives until the day of Christ’s return.
NRSV to help you to determine what is best, so that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless,
NRSVA to help you to determine what is best, so that on the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless,
NRSVACE to help you to determine what is best, so that on the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless,
NRSVCE to help you to determine what is best, so that in the day of Christ you may be pure and blameless,
OJB To help you approve the feste (excellent) things of musar (moral discipline) that matter, that you may be sincere and without michshol (stumbling block) of blame [2:15] in the Yom HaMoshiach [1:6; 2:16],
RSV so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
RSVCE so that you may approve what is excellent, and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
VOICE so they will be able to examine and determine the best from everything else. And on the day of the Anointed One, the day of His judgment, let them stand pure and blameless,
WEB so that you may approve the things that are excellent; that you may be sincere and without offense to the day of Christ;
WE When I talk to God I ask that you may have more and more love. I ask him that you will also know and understand, so that you will be able to see what things are right. I want you to be clean with nothing wrong in you when Jesus Christ comes back.
WYC that ye approve the better things [that ye prove the better things], that ye be clean and without offence in the day of Christ;
YLT for your proving the things that differ, that ye may be pure and offenceless -- to a day of Christ,
Philippians 1:9 KJV
And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
How do we know HOW to abound in judgement so that we can carry out, do, be a doer of Philippians 1:10?
HOW? HOW? HOW?
HOW? HOW? HOW?
SIMPLE-SIMPLE-SIMPLE - study out how every word in that passage - Philippians 1:10 - is used by Paul in Romans thru Philemon.
Do that with say, the word love, and or charity - see from the Word Itself the truth of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
That is one of the things I do, out of my KJB.
And I find I do not need a back up translation, the Greek, endless books by so and so, and all that.
I find - and this a recurrent pattern that keeps pointing to the same truth - I find that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is not only true but oceans and oceans more than enough of "a study tool."
I repeatedly find that:
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
As rare as I find this practice as a practice alone to be, one might as well bring back one of those Ripley's Believe It Or Not Museums and place 2 Timothy 3:16-17 on display.
SIMPLE-SIMPLE-SIMPLE - study out how every word in that passage - Philippians 1:10 - is used by Paul in Romans thru Philemon.
Do that with say, the word love, and or charity - see from the Word Itself the truth of 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
That is one of the things I do, out of my KJB.
And I find I do not need a back up translation, the Greek, endless books by so and so, and all that.
I find - and this a recurrent pattern that keeps pointing to the same truth - I find that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is not only true but oceans and oceans more than enough of "a study tool."
I repeatedly find that:
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
As rare as I find this practice as a practice alone to be, one might as well bring back one of those Ripley's Believe It Or Not Museums and place 2 Timothy 3:16-17 on display.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Indeed we need to first read every word in that passage and figure out if we know what those words mean.
For instance, Matthew 2:11, do we know what "house" means?
How does that location differ from a place that would contain a manger? Luke 2:7,12,16
How does it differ?
How about the statement "there is no God" how would you handle that?