If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

aikido7

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If you sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, He will lead you to the Catholic Church

You may have an aversion to the Roman Catholic Church, don't want to go there, heard so many odd and unkosher sounding things about it..

But you will nonetheless be led there b/c that is part of Christendom...

and if you study history of the Church (from reliable sources) you will learn more and more about this historic Church, THE Church... (but you don't believe that yet) and you will learn more and more and

well...

2 words

Scott Hahn

(Why re-invent the wheel? He has done all the research for you)

He was once anti-Catholic, but he, unlike most anti-Catholics here, STUDIED... and studied and studied... He studied so that he could prove Catholicism was WRONG... but he could not do that...

He has read literally THOUSANDS of books on theology... by Catholics and non-Catholics..

and most of you know what happened..


___
Since "following the Holy Spirit" is markedly different for all believers (and, like it or not, provable according to the person!) your post must be identified as a personal faith statement. In that respect, it is no different in kind from any other personal faith statement.

Religions are filled with different people's "personal testimonies" to all sorts of different theology and every one of them has apparently sought out to "prove" one thing or another.
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
Decide for yourself if the Catholic denomination, or you personally go against God.

Do you add to the written Word?...
The Apostle's taught more than just whats' in the New Testament.
...Do you go by the traditions of men?...
Certain men. 'Called "Apostle's." Look 'em up. Their in they're.
...Do you call your brothers in Christ 'father'?...
No.
...Do you use others as mediator between God and you?...
No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .
...Do you, or your denomination water baptize those who have not repented?...
I baptized my children as infant's. So yes. Belief and repentance are later event's.
...Does anyone in your church take the seat of most importance?...
N/A
...Does anyone in you r church wear long flowing robes, and allow others to bow to them, even kissing their feet?...
N/A
...Do you, or anyone in your denomination teach the bowing to statues, pictures, and relics (objects belonging to 'saint')?...
N/A
...It is another false denomination.
False.


Daniel
 

HisServant

New member
No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .

Jesus never taught us to pray to anyone but the Father... he did not say pray to his mother.

His mother is still human and dead.. she cannot hear prayers and has no greater access to Jesus than we do.

Praying to a 'perpetual virgin' is not a unique thing to Christianity, it's rooted in the deification of one of the old pagan Roman Gods (Diana aka Artemis).. whereas she had a child and then had her virginity restored and was then a perpetual virgin. Rome worshiped her for centuries prior to Christianity.
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
Jesus never taught us to pray to anyone but the Father...
Jesus never taught you anything. Context, context.
...he did not say pray to his mother...
He said John 20:21 KJV. His Apostle's taught to pray to her, and there teaching office, Peters supreme pastorship, the papacy, teach's us today to do so.
...His mother is still human and dead.....
She did not die, and beside that, why do you believe that those in heaven cannot hear us?
...she cannot hear prayers and has no greater access to Jesus than we do...
Contrary to what you and other non-Catholic's believe, Mary and Jesus, just like other mother's and son's, have an everlasting relationship. "Mother of God" come's from the Greek word for "God-bearer;" she who gave birth to [the Son of] God.
...Praying to a 'perpetual virgin' is not a unique thing to Christianity, it's rooted in the deification of one of the old pagan Roman Gods (Diana aka Artemis).. whereas she had a child and then had her virginity restored and was then a perpetual virgin. Rome worshiped her for centuries prior to Christianity.
Who care's. Seriously, nobody care's about this.


Daniel
 

HisServant

New member
Jesus never taught you anything. Context, context.
He said John 20:21 KJV. His Apostle's taught to pray to her, and there teaching office, Peters supreme pastorship, the papacy, teach's us today to do so.
She did not die, and beside that, why do you believe that those in heaven cannot hear us?
Contrary to what you and other non-Catholic's believe, Mary and Jesus, just like other mother's and son's, have an everlasting relationship. "Mother of God" come's from the Greek word for "God-bearer;" she who gave birth to [the Son of] God.
Who care's. Seriously, nobody care's about this.


Daniel

Not a single apostle ever taught anyone to pray to her... I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Mother of God is also a term that was borrowed from Roman Paganism...

Your church has NO connection to Jesus.. who started his church in JERUSALEM.... both he and the Apostles HATED Rome... and according to the Old Testament... Rome is under a PERPETUAL CURSE for its occupation of Israel.

So.... all you believe is a non-historical fairy tail.

And seriously, no one really cares about what you believe... simply because of the fruits of your church are covered in the blood of the innocent.
 

Dan Emanuel

Active member
Not a single apostle ever taught anyone to pray to her... I challenge you to prove otherwise...
I already did. The Churches' Sacred Tradition come's down from the Apostle's by word-of-mouth from bishop-to-bishop. Your not a bishop, so your not privy to these word-of-mouth exchange's.
...Mother of God is also a term that was borrowed from Roman Paganism...
Prove it.
...Your church has NO connection to Jesus.. who started his church in JERUSALEM.... both he and the Apostles HATED Rome...
And both Peter and Paul lived and died their.
...and according to the Old Testament... Rome is under a PERPETUAL CURSE for its occupation of Israel...
Have you ever read about the Roman's in the Greek Old Testament, that Martin Luther and the Reformer's saw fit to expunge from the Churches' Bible? They'res actually quite a lot about them in their, if you've ever looked.
...So.... all you believe is a non-historical fairy tail...
No, you made that up.
...And seriously, no one really cares about what you believe... simply because of the fruits of your church are covered in the blood of the innocent.
You just show me a perfect Christian, and I'll show you the Apostle's, because they (beside's Mary) are the pinnacle's of our 1 historic faith, and they weren't perfect.


Daniel
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Catholic Tradition doses not cut it! Scripture does.

2 Timothy 3:16 Modern English Version (MEV)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
 

HisServant

New member
I already did. The Churches' Sacred Tradition come's down from the Apostle's by word-of-mouth from bishop-to-bishop. Your not a bishop, so your not privy to these word-of-mouth exchange's.
Prove it.
[/quote

The first evidence of praying to Mary showed up in the 3rd century... before that all the extensive writings of the apostles seem to have forgotten that she was important at all

And both Peter and Paul lived and died their.

Peter could only have been in Rome if he had a teleporter. His travels in the New Testament are well documented and it would have physically impossible for Peter to have ever stepped foot in Rome.

Second, we do know that Paul was in Rome... and he was the most prolific writer and never once did he mention Peter being in Rome.

Have you ever read about the Roman's in the Greek Old Testament, that Martin Luther and the Reformer's saw fit to expunge from the Churches' Bible? They'res actually quite a lot about them in their, if you've ever looked.

They were not successful in doing so either. Except for the Apocryphal books which your church never used for doctrinal matters... they did not meet the criteria they determined for the cannon anyhow.

No, you made that up.
[/quote

My beliefs are based on sound archaeological and historical evidence.

You just show me a perfect Christian, and I'll show you the Apostle's, because they (beside's Mary) are the pinnacle's of our 1 historic faith, and they weren't perfect.

True, but they were disciples of Jesus himself... and they were FAR from being perfect.

FYI, your 'sacred' traditions are nothing but a mythology developed centuries after Jesus to fit with Roman sensibilities and reliance on their old Gods.
 

Cruciform

New member
Catholic Tradition doses not cut it! Scripture does.
...but not your preferred interpretations of Scripture, which are no more than the very "traditions of men" that you oppose.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,
The written aspect of God's Word is certainly profitable, and so is the unwritten aspect of God's Word.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
...but not your preferred interpretations of Scripture, which are no more than the very "traditions of men" that you oppose.


The written aspect of God's Word is certainly profitable, and so is the unwritten aspect of God's Word.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
We are to interpret scripture.

Acts 17:11 Modern English Version (MEV)

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, daily examining the Scriptures, to find out if these things were so.
 

Cruciform

New member
Links? And likely from biased sources?
There's no such thing as an unbiased source---including the ones from which you've derived your present assumptions and beliefs.

Why not directly and succintly address questions that someone took time to posit in response to your demands for detailed doctrines that are at issue?
No need, since this has already been done by Catholics for centuries. The sources I provided contain precisely the information you requested.

THIS is why no one can take you seriously. You default to others to answer questions and evade directly doing so yourself.
The information would be exactly the same whether I cited the sources I did, or wasted my time duplicating the content of those sources by typing it out myself. You got the information you asked for, and so have no right to complain as though you haven't.

You are the reason so many will never consider Catholicism. And I think that's great, personally.
Your transparent excuse for continuing to willfully deny Christ's one historic Church is noted.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Cruciform

New member
We are to interpret scripture.
Yes, we are to interpret Scripture not according to our own preferences and opinions---or those of one of the myriad competing and contradictory recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today---but according to the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, daily examining the Scriptures, to find out if these things were so.
Unfortunately for your assumptions, the Bereans certainly did not hold to sola scriptura, as is plainly outlined here.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Yes, we are to interpret Scripture not according to our own preferences and opinions---or those of one of the myriad competing and contradictory recently-invented, man-made non-Catholic sects in existence today---but according to the authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church (Mt. 28:18-20; Lk. 10:16; Ac. 15:2; 16:4; 2 Thess. 3:4; 1 Tim. 3:15; 1 Jn. 4:6).


Unfortunately for your assumptions, the Bereans certainly did not hold to sola scriptura, as is plainly outlined here.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

So you say that the proper interpretation can come through the Catholic Church. Number 1, I should believe that Mary is the Mother of God as the Catholic Church says? Don't think so.
 

Cruciform

New member
So you say that the proper interpretation can come through the Catholic Church.
Not only can, but ultimately does.

...I should believe that Mary is the Mother of God as the Catholic Church says? Don't think so.

That's only because you choose to place your own preferences and opinions (or those of your preferred recently-invented, man-made sect) above the Spirit-given authoritative teachings of Christ's one historic Church and, therefore, above Christ himself (Lk. 10:16; 1 Tim. 3:15). You certainly see nothing like this among disciples in the New Testament.


Incidentally, Mary is certainly the Mother of God---unless you wish to deny the full divinity of Jesus Christ. Do you, then, deny the deity of Christ?



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
There's no such thing as an unbiased source---including the ones from which you've derived your present assumptions and beliefs.


If that is true, then you've made my point.

No need, since this has already been done by Catholics for centuries.

No, Catholics have not posted individual responses to those issues on TOL for centuries. Your response makes it all the more curious why you wouldn't do so if the answers are available so readily.

Your tact always includes logical fallacies, including Bulverisms.

The sources I provided contain precisely the information you requested.

I'm on TOL, conversing with you. Why should I access information elsewhere that you won't provide here? How difficult would it be to summarize or copy/paste.

You're a slothful servant, and proselytizer of those who divorced the historically unfaithful Catholic spouse as the alleged Church.

Protestants who have never been Catholic are not excluded by Catholicism, even by Catholic standards.

The information would be exactly the same whether I cited the sources I did, or wasted my time duplicating the content of those sources by typing it out myself. You got the information you asked for, and so have no right to complain as though you haven't.

No, I didn't. I got links. I didn't get one word of information. You insist everyone must carry on your own conversations for you with themselves.

Your transparent excuse for continuing to willfully deny Christ's one historic Church is noted.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

No, I don't. I just appropriately distinguish between catholic and Catholic; the latter being the corrupt Romanized dilution of the former.

The bottom line remains... The OP is incorrect. Many sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, and are not led to the Catholic Church.

What is the official position of the Catholic Church on that? My understanding is that the Popes have insisted others besides Catholics are sincerely led by the Holy Spirit. I'm sure you'll attempt to decry that with ploys of semantics, but it's true.
 

Cruciform

New member
If that is true, then you've made my point.No, Catholics have not posted individual responses to those issues on TOL for centuries.Your response makes it all the more curious why you wouldn't do so if the answers are available so readily.Your tact always includes logical fallacies, including Bulverisms.I'm on TOL, conversing with you.Why should I access information elsewhere that you won't provide here?How difficult would it be to summarize or copy/paste.You're a slothful servant, and proselytizer of those who divorced the historically unfaithful Catholic spouse as the alleged Church.Protestants who have never been Catholic are not excluded by Catholicism, even by Catholic standards.No, I didn't.I got links.I didn't get one word of information. You insist everyone must carry on your own conversations for you with themselves.No, I don't.I just appropriately distinguish between catholic and Catholic; the latter being the corrupt Romanized dilution of the former.The bottom line remains...The OP is incorrect.Many sincerely follow the Holy Spirit, and are not led to the Catholic Church.What is the official position of the Catholic Church on that?My understanding is that the Popes have insisted others besides Catholics are sincerely led by the Holy Spirit.I'm sure you'll attempt to decry that with ploys of semantics, but it's true.
Post #71
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber

LOL. Good ol' Cruciform.

Y'know... I tell people about you, and have them read your stuff sporadically. They ALL insist your tact is the greatest anti-Catholic pro-Protestant approach they've ever seen.

You drive others FROM Catholicism with your sterile and loveless logical fallacy tactics. It's some weird leftover Evangelical impulse in you to nominally argue and convert others.

You really are the kind of representative for Catholicism that does much more harm than good; whereas a humble, gracious, and knowledgable Orthodox like Arsenios is utterly compelling.

Why continue with such a pattern? You've almost single-handedly caused me to spurn the very mention of Catholicism, when I was preciously much more neutral. Add nominal idiotic indoctrinates like rebulicanchick, and you guys are the greatest deterrent to Catholicism extant.

Just... Why? Why be so... You? Why not be Christ instead? Be beyond non-Catholics in every aspect of your comportment and example. Only then might others listen, and even that's a long-shot.

Terse, overbearing Catholic converts are Evangelical hybrids with little to offer except accusation and condemnation. I've never once met a loving Catholic in my life. Not once. They're all ignorant carnalites with a false agenda of self-righteousness... to a person.

Maybe prayfully consider the weight of these words.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber

And... This approach again makes my point.

Others take the time to converse with you at length. In response, you slothfully post links and keep referring to other posts ad nauseum ad infinitum.

Do as you wish, but this is utterly ineffective for even the slightest degree of actual discussion.

Robotic regurgitation. Not a fan. Why not be an actual human and stop condescending to everyone with non-responses.

You reduce others to clay pigeons as your shotgun targets. And this edifies no one nor promotes the Gospel in any manner.

And I'm talking about your pattern and style, not content. By all means, share content. Links and referred posts aren't content.

Arrggghhhh!!!!!
 

God's Truth

New member
The Apostle's taught more than just whats' in the New Testament.

Everything the Catholics add, those things go against WHAT IS WRITTEN.


Certain men. 'Called "Apostle's." Look 'em up. Their in they're.

The Apostles taught verbally what was written. However, the Catholic denomination verbally teaches against what is written.


Jesus says we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

The Catholics call some of their brothers in Christ ‘father’, and even the Catholic “fathers” call each other ‘father’!

No (I pray "Our Father" as Jesus taught) and yes (I pray also to Mary, Mother of God, and I ask her to "pray for us sinner's"). Jesus listen's to His mother . . . .

Why did you say no and then say you pray to Mary?

If you pray to Mary, then she is a mediator to you. However, God says there is only one mediator and that is Jesus.


If you are saved, and if you have Jesus living in your heart, why would you pray to Mary to go to Jesus for you?

I baptized my children as infant's. So yes. Belief and repentance are later event's.

Jesus says to REPENT and be baptized.


Is the Catholic’s pope your pope?

If yes, then your pope takes the seat of most importance.

Did you know that the pope even has a special chair?


Don’t you want to talk about what the Catholic pope does?
All Catholics, even the Eastern Orthodox Catholics bow to the “Holy Images”, and the relics (material possession of dead “Saints).
 

Lon

Well-known member
Protestantism is definitely an interesting experiment. Lets start over, with just our Bible's to guide us.

'Fact is thats not how the actual Church started. The Bible (including the New Testament and the Greek Old Testament) was the Churches' idea. The Christian Bible is a product of the Church, not the other way around. So to "re-start" the Church based "solely" on the Bible, ought to lead you right back to the Church herself, if the Church did it right; and thats the point of the O.P.


Daniel
I believe this is a severe and mostly laity, mistake and heterodox. The Catholic church 'recognized' the canon, not created it. There are a lot of reasons this has to be true and why many Catholic authorities say the same thing. You have to 'write' the books to be the author.

Collating the OT and the Apostles is/was a no-brainer chore. You simply take books that are written in the OT bible and add anything written by an Apostle or included by an Apostle, and that's the end of it for us. You Orthodox/Catholics can get lost in confusion after the clarity is all over (and that is precisely what happens).
 
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