If God created...

Stuu

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Even if it's a trillion trillions-to-1 underdog, those aren't safe enough odds in my book, especially given that the only stake you're putting up, is in your mind, converting Easter from fictional, to nonfiction. There's literally nothing else to it. It's worth a rethink.
What is it like to live a life in fear of a despot god?

I know, and I avoid that god of the gaps like the plague. I value science.
But you still see the problem, though. What claim can you make for special creation of anything that doesn't carry the danger of being explained as an outcome of natural processes, which in turn are then explained in terms of other natural processes? The logical conclusion is the god gets shrunk back to nothing and you become the vaguest of deists on the question of creation.

It is interesting, I do ask it, and I can't answer it.
So what is your attitude to those who can give evidence-based answers that don't involve any god hypothesis?

Believing Easter alone, limits nothing else. Fire away with everything you've got. It's not "a god that would be impressed by Pascal's Wager," it's just the Good News of Easter. Then, there's Paul, who's authorized to tell us the dirty little secret, right in the Christian Bible, that Easter is the sine qua non of Christianity. If Easter is fictional, then the Christian faith's a joke, and if it's nonfiction, then all you have to do is choose to believe Easter, and you'll be saved.
Well, I do admire your forthright declaration of that. You make christianity falsifiable, which is in its favour, but against that is the scientifically induced fact that humans don't walk again after execution, which is a scientific disproof of the easter myth. So you come down to the probability that one man in all history has survived a successful execution, and place that in the context of a belief system that denies all other claims by other religious groups that all their man-gods uniquely arose from death. How is the christian claim for their man-god any better than any other 'easter' story?

Another slight problem is that you still need quite a lot of mythology to link 'man rises from dead' to 'we are all saved from the anger of an invisible friend by that invisible friend'. Or do you think all of that is contained within the word easter?

If Easter is fiction, then that's an interesting story all by itself, and lends credence to your notion of it being a meme, and to my commentary that Easter would then be the fiercest meme the world's every seen. To provoke so many people today, and throughout history, to psychotically believe that a man was dead from Friday night to Sunday morning---Easter morning---and then wasn't anymore, if that's fictional, then it's psychotic to believe it's nonfiction.
I don't think the story itself is that interesting. It's more like the plot of a badly-written historical fiction.

But the question of how people could behave like sheep on such a grand scale, I agree that's interesting. Do you think we would be having this discussion now if Constantine had not made christianity the religion of the Roman Empire?

Stuart
 

6days

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Stuu said:
Sorry, I missed your reasoning for why, since watches need to be coded by engineers, therefore humans need to be coded by engineers. Who says that all codes need artificial coding?
Evidence and logic. (Unless you reframe / create a strawman, from what was actually said, as you did)


Stuu said:
And 11-cis-retinal has to be unstable with respect to absorption of a photon, otherwise the system wouldn't work. And the alkene group on the 11th carbon was indeed selected, by natural selection.
UH,.... you have a small part of that correct.

From the start...

* Light enters our eye 'hitting' rhodopsin, which consists of 2 molecules, the protein opsin which is integrated with vitamin A

* The vitamin A changes shape, and rhodopsin now becomes a perfect molecule called 11-cis- retinal; a light sensing chromophore. It is optimal, or perfect, capturing the smallest possible amount of light, a single photon.

* Interesting the researchers was that the only possible way rhodopsin could become a light switch / chromophore was for the vitamin A molecule to change shape at a precise position, the 11th atom.

* This arrangement, and precision suprised the evolutionist researchers since 11-cis-retinal is one of the least stable isomers. IOW, vitamin A does not normally intregrate with opsin.

* With as little as 5 photons of light our eyes now have a 'trillion' mini-computers that start processing an image, before it even gets to the brain, which completes the processing.

* The article in PhysOrg concludes with the thought that God's design of cis-rhodopsin will aid researchers in "optimizing" artificial retinas. (Although, they of course don't credit our creator... but they use their god of the gaps... 'I don't understand why this isomer exists, therefore nature did it')


Stuu said:
6days said:
Surprising to the evolutionists.........

There you go again. Were they astounded, or just mildly perplexed? Or shocked, perhaps?

Perhaps they were baffled as you suggest, but the word they used was "surprised". The article starts by telling us they were "puzzled". Then when they realized the design, they said "This indeed is VERY SURPRISING given the fact that, outside the protein environment, 11-cis-retinal is one of the least stable isomers."


Perhaps part of the reason science keeps surprising evolutionists is we see amazing design, and evidence of our designer
 

Stuu

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Evidence and logic.
So, what evidence, and what logic demands that all codes need artificial coding?

From the start...
* Light enters our eye 'hitting' rhodopsin, which consists of 2 molecules, the protein opsin which is integrated with vitamin A
Not 'vitamin A'. It's specifically retinal.

* The vitamin A changes shape, and rhodopsin now becomes a perfect molecule called 11-cis- retinal; a light sensing chromophore. It is optimal, or perfect, capturing the smallest possible amount of light, a single photon.
Rhodopsin doesn't become 11-cis-retinal. It's still rhodopsin. 11-cis-retinal becomes all-trans-retinal.

11-cis-retinal is not the only molecule that can respond with a shape-change to a single photon. It's not necessarily the optimum molecule for the chromophore in rhodopsin, but there is no question it has been optimised. So, if this is the optimum molecule, you would expect a creator to have used exactly that same rhodopin-chromophore system in other animals, right? Well wrong. In creationist terms it's only one of several 'perfect' molecules, and so they all must be perfect, right?

But the tell-tale sign of natural selection at work is the fact that not only are there alternate versions of the molecule in existence in other animals, 3-hydroxyretinal, 4-hydroxyretinal, 3,4-hydroxyretinal, and the optical isomers of these are used, apparently related to the dietary source of the raw material, xanthophylls instead of carotenoids, but more interestingly that archaic bacteria use cis-trans isomerism of 13-cis-retinal as a proton pump system. So it's not only the conversion of the 11-double bond that is a useful shape-change chromophore system.

Natural selection has found several different ways of exploiting the light-initiated cis-trans shape change in retinal. There are several possibilities in the molecule because there are four double bonds that can exhibit cis-trans isomerism.

* Interesting the researchers was that the only possible way rhodopsin could become a light switch / chromophore was for the vitamin A molecule to change shape at a precise position, the 11th atom.
I think it is likely that the rhodopsin system would work using the double bond at carbon-13, and probably the one at carbon-9 as well, but clearly it is optimised by natural selection to use isomerism at carbon-11.

* This arrangement, and precision suprised the evolutionist researchers since 11-cis-retinal is one of the least stable isomers.
...and that might be the reason for its optimisation at that double bond. Do you have a citation that demonstrates the surprise expressed by the original researchers, as you appear to be claim? Something that says 'we were surprised' that this least-stable system would be the one used? Or are we talking about a rent-a-crowd of 'evolutionists' who will express astonishment on cue?

I'm not knocking astonishment, of course. A key motivator for doing science is that new discoveries are often astonishing, even when it is the Large Hadron Collider discovering the Higgs Boson. That was predicted decades ago, but it's confirmation could still be legitimately considered astonishing. But not surprising.

IOW, vitamin A does not normally intregrate with opsin.
That doesn't make any sense, because vitamin A is a mixture of different, related molecules, and you wouldn't expect any of them except retinal to 'integrate' with an opsin. You also need the enzymes that convert these other things into retinal, which does bind to an opsin.

Perhaps part of the reason science keeps surprising evolutionists is we see amazing design, and evidence of our designer
But this is clearly an example of natural selection, with the different ways that the light-initiated shape-change in retinal has been exploited to pump protons, pump chloride ions and detect light. It is an Intelligent Design advocate's nightmare.

Stuart
 

Stripe

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You must admit, from a christian point of view it would be really interesting to discover how this god makes things, right? So why does no christian ever ask, let alone answer that kind of question?

You mean like the multitude of times that Christians have responded to that very question by quoting scripture?

How did God create man? He formed him out of the dust off the earth.

The problem is that you refuse to respect the position you oppose. That's not to say you have to consider that we might be right; start off simple: At least acknowledge what the Bible clearly says.

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Jonahdog

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You mean like the multitude of times that Christians have responded to that very question by quoting scripture?

How did God create man? He formed him out of the dust off the earth.

The problem is that you refuse to respect the position you oppose. That's not to say you have to consider that we might be right; start off simple: At least acknowledge what the Bible clearly says.

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Stripe,it is simple to acknowledge what the Bible clearly says. But once you do that and look a little further at the evidence it is then simple to acknowledge your Bible is clearly incorrect with respect to the beginning of the universe, the age of the universe, whether or not there was a Big Flood just several thousand years ago, etc. Once you accept the real world evidence any requirement to accept a literal Bible goes out the window.
 

Stripe

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Stripe,it is simple to acknowledge what the Bible clearly says. But once you do that and look a little further at the evidence it is then simple to acknowledge your Bible is clearly incorrect with respect to the beginning of the universe, the age of the universe, whether or not there was a Big Flood just several thousand years ago, etc. Once you accept the real world evidence any requirement to accept a literal Bible goes out the window.
Stomping your feet and demanding that your way is the only way gets you no respect.

What you need to do is engage rationally.

It was just described to you how Stuu's characterization of what the Bible teaches is wrong.

To engage rationally, your best bet would be to join me in correcting him.

Stuu insisted that no Christians ask how God made things, but they do and the answers are in scripture.

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Jonahdog

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Stomping your feet and demanding that your way is the only way gets you no respect.

What you need to do is engage rationally.

It was just described to you how Stuu's characterization of what the Bible teaches is wrong.

To engage rationally, your best bet would be to join me in correcting him.

Stuu insisted that no Christians ask how God made things, but they do and the answers are in scripture.

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Oh, Stripey, I did not stomp my feet. I agreed with you that it is simple to acknowledge what the Bible says. I simply asked you to take the next step and compare what it says with the real world. You are unable or unwilling to do that.
"God made man from the dust of the earth" is only a satisfying answer to "how?" if you are OK with superficiality.
 

JudgeRightly

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Oh, Stripey, I did not stomp my feet. I agreed with you that it is simple to acknowledge what the Bible says. I simply asked you to take the next step and compare what it says with the real world. You are unable or unwilling to do that.
"God made man from the dust of the earth" is only a satisfying answer to "how?" if you are OK with superficiality.
Just to address the claim that man is made from the dust from the ground...

https://answersingenesis.org/human-body/from-dust-to-dust/
 

Stripe

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Oh, Stripey, I did not stomp my feet. I agreed with you that it is simple to acknowledge what the Bible says. I simply asked you to take the next step and compare what it says with the real world. You are unable or unwilling to do that.
"God made man from the dust of the earth" is only a satisfying answer to "how?" if you are OK with superficiality.
Again, utterly unresponsive.

When are Darwinists going to learn to engage rationally?

We know you hate the ideas you are presented with, but stomping your feet and demanding — sans evidence — that it is your way or nothing gains you no respect.

To engage rationally, you have to respect what the other side is saying. Stuu's characterization of the Bible shows that he has no idea what he is talking about.

Your response is to try and cover his failure.

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gcthomas

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Again, utterly unresponsive.

When are Darwinists going to learn to engage rationally?

We know you hate the ideas you are presented with, but stomping your feet and demanding — sans evidence — that it is your way or nothing gains you no respect.

To engage rationally, you have to respect what the other side is saying. Stuu's characterization of the Bible shows that he has no idea what he is talking about.

Your response is to try and cover his failure.

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Have you ever thought of making a contribution yourself? ;)
 

Jonahdog

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Again, utterly unresponsive.

When are Darwinists going to learn to engage rationally?

We know you hate the ideas you are presented with, but stomping your feet and demanding — sans evidence — that it is your way or nothing gains you no respect.

To engage rationally, you have to respect what the other side is saying. Stuu's characterization of the Bible shows that he has no idea what he is talking about.

Your response is to try and cover his failure.

Sent from my SM-A520F using TOL mobile app

Oh, now I see the problem. You expect me to respect your irrational thought processes. Well,let's put that one to bed. I don't.
 

Stripe

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Oh, now I see the problem. You expect me to respect your irrational thought processes. Well,let's put that one to bed. I don't.
No, you don't see. I explained myself clearly; you just want something to argue with to cover Stuu's error, so you pretend I said something else and turn to mockery.

When will a sensible atheist emerge from the swamp?

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JudgeRightly

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But the "how" is not explained. And, I suspect, given your theological need, unexplainable
It says:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” - Genesis 1:26-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:26-28&version=NKJV

Are you asking for a step by step process of how God created man? He took some "dirt," formed it into a human shape, and then breathed life into that dirt.

That's how He made man.
 

Jonahdog

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It says:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” - Genesis 1:26-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:26-28&version=NKJV

Are you asking for a step by step process of how God created man? He took some "dirt," formed it into a human shape, and then breathed life into that dirt.

That's how He made man.

Yep, I know what it says. How is it different than magic?
 
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