If Evolution

[daqq]

Hi daqq,

I was reading the other night, where Jesus said "are there not 12 hours in a day" and I thought then that Jesus is only including daytime hours where there is light and I also thought then that even Jesus didn't refer naturally to a 24 hour day. But rather the hours wherein there is light. Thanks for explaining the Roman calender, I didn't know that, but I know that God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all, and I know that he doesn't bring life through darkness only light, and he brings us from darkness into light thus we have the evening and the morning in each day in creation to bring the works of God to be made manifest in the morning which is the first light. We are the darkness that God works through, we were in darkness before we knew him. And just as the moon being a dead planet only reflects the light of the sun, to bring light onto the earth whilst it is in darkness, so is it with God's people, they are in darkness until God brings them to life through Christ and the light is then reflected through them, through the son, to bring light to those in darkness in the earth.

God forms and works in us as we were hear the word through those who are born of him, they are like lamp posts bringing light on a dark night to guide us and teach the way of Christ, a bit of light whilst we are in the darkness, then once we obey the teachings and start live by the will of God, in God's time we are blessed with the Spirit, and this is the beginning for us when Christ enters into our hearts, he is our first light. Then we start to be changed, becoming a new man through Christ, through progressive revelation, progressive light and God changes our hearts to be more like his son through faith by the grace of God.

I know the scriptures speak of the natural, but many don't seem to see the spiritual. And I know that God's ways and times aren't our ways and times. But it's simple, the old testament puts to death, and the New testament brings life after death through Christ Jesus he is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the father except through him.

The first hour of the day is called Yom haRishon in Num7:12. That is typically the hour in which the sun would rise. However the first hour of the prayer times is more important and called Yom Echad, which is what we find in Gen1:5, and that is the reason for the wording "and there was evening, and there was morning", because the hours of prayer commenced at the bottom of the hour. The first hour of prayer, (Yom Echad), commenced at the bottom of the third hour of the day on the sundial, (such as the sundial of Ahaz). The sixth hour of the day was also an hour of prayer, commencing at the bottom or "evening" portion of the sixth hour of the day. The ninth hour of the day was also the last official hour of prayer for the day; and it likewise commenced at the bottom or evening portion of the hour. The tenth hour of the day is the daily Shabbat hour but in the prayer times it is not the tenth but the seventh hour because of the offsetting of the prayer times being commenced in the third hour of the day on the sundial.

Yom haRishon, (Num 7:12) = first hour of the day by the sundial.
Yom Echad, (Gen 1:5) = bottom of the third hour to the bottom of the fourth hour of the day.

That is why Rev 8:1 speaks of silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; for such language informs the reader that what follows pertains to the daily hours of the prayer times. The shabuim-weeks of Daniel pertain to these same prayer times which are three times daily at the half-hour or bottom of the hour: every hour has a morning half and an evening half, just as every second, or minute, or day, for it speaks more in terms such as inhale, exhale, (breathing while speaking, spoken-Word, just as we have in Gen1).

 

[marhig]

The first hour of the day is called Yom haRishon in Num7:12. That is typically the hour in which the sun would rise. However the first hour of the prayer times is more important and called Yom Echad, which is what we find in Gen1:5, and that is the reason for the wording "and there was evening, and there was morning", because the hours of prayer commenced at the bottom of the hour. The first hour of prayer, (Yom Echad), commenced at the bottom of the third hour of the day on the sundial, (such as the sundial of Ahaz). The sixth hour of the day was also an hour of prayer, commencing at the bottom or "evening" portion of the sixth hour of the day. The ninth hour of the day was also the last official hour of prayer for the day; and it likewise commenced at the bottom or evening portion of the hour. The tenth hour of the day is the daily Shabbat hour but in the prayer times it is not the tenth but the seventh hour because of the offsetting of the prayer times being commenced in the third hour of the day on the sundial.

Yom haRishon, (Num 7:12) = first hour of the day by the sundial.
Yom Echad, (Gen 1:5) = bottom of the third hour to the bottom of the fourth hour of the day.

That is why Rev 8:1 speaks of silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; for such language informs the reader that what follows pertains to the daily hours of the prayer times. The shabuim-weeks of Daniel pertain to these same prayer times which are three times daily at the half-hour or bottom of the hour: every hour has a morning half and an evening half, just as every second, or minute, or day, for it speaks more in terms such as inhale, exhale, (breathing while speaking, spoken-Word, just as we have in Gen1).

The prayer times are the natural, but can you see the spiritual? I thought that out of the many here you would be one of the ones that would understand?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So you can see that the Bible isn't all literal then?

I have never made the claim that the entire Bible is completely literal. I do say, however, that the Bible uses parables, figurative language, analogies, etc., to tell one big story, which can be summed up in four words, creation, fall, reconciliation, and reward. The story is God's story, how He created the universe, how His creation fell, how He came to reconcile us, and how He will reward His creation by their story.

 

[daqq]

The prayer times are the natural, but can you see the spiritual? I thought that out of the many here you would be one of the ones that would understand?

I understand what you said previously but must stay strictly with what is written in such an environment, (lol). If you do not hear what I say then how will you understand the hours of the crucifixion? And if you never come to understand such times then how will you say you are indeed crucified with Messiah? Genesis 1 is the New Creation: should not a new creation-creature in Messiah understand such things? I learned these things from the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts and only then did they begin to become apparent in the Torah.

 

[marhig]

I understand what you said previously but must stay strictly with what is written in such an environment, (lol). If you do not hear what I say then how will you understand the hours of the crucifixion? And if you never come to understand such times then how will you say you are indeed crucified with Messiah? Genesis 1 is the New Creation: should not a new creation-creature in Messiah understand such things? I learned these things from the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts and only then did they begin to become apparent in the Torah.

Yes daqq, but the cross of Christ that saves is the cross that Christ bore to preach the gospel of life and truth. We are not saved by the death of Jesus on the cross, we are saved by his life.

Also, I don't need to know the ins and outs of the laws and ways of the old testament, as we walk in the Spirit we have the laws written within our hearts and within our minds. I don't need to be given times to pray to God, I pray to God all day from my heart which is the closet of my house.

 

[marhig]

I have never made the claim that the entire Bible is completely literal. I do say, however, that the Bible uses parables, figurative language, analogies, etc., to tell one big story, which can be summed up in four words, creation, fall, reconciliation, and reward. The story is God's story, how He created the universe, how His creation fell, how He came to reconcile us, and how He will reward His creation by their story.

And God created everything through light and life and that light and life is in Christ Jesus, he is our way back to God. He is the light of the world and we are created through him.

 

[daqq]

Yes daqq, but the cross of Christ that saves is the cross that Christ bore to preach the gospel of life and truth. We are not saved by the death of Jesus on the cross, we are saved by his life.

Also, I don't need to know the ins and outs of the laws and ways of the old testament, as we walk in the Spirit we have the laws written within our hearts and within our minds. I don't need too be given times to pray to God, I pray to God all day from my heart which is the closest of my house.

You are not hearing what I am trying to say: did I say you need to be given times to pray? These things are written in the scripture for our learning and understanding: and if you do not understand such things then how can you claim they are written on your heart?

---

From the context and from the fact that the word yom appears not once but twice in each of Num7:72, and Num7:78, there is no way these are twelve days but are rather surely twelve yom-hours in a single yom-day. That is the only way to correctly undersatand the passage without removing words from the Torah, as every English translator does, at least when it comes to verses seventy-two and seventy-eight, (for they all remove one occurrance of the word yom from each verse because they do not understand how else to render it because they do not understand that a yom can also be an hour). It is for this very reason that the Master has the authority to say what he says in Jhn 11:9-10, for each of the twelve yom-hours in a full yom-day is represented by one of the twelve tribes: and Moses says that the twelve princes of the twelve tribes offered their korban each in his own yom-hour of the yom-day wherein the altar was anointed and dedicated. This all therefore takes place in a single yom-day.

Numbers 7:10-12
10 And the princes offered for dedication of the altar in the yom that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, They shall offer their offering, each prince in his yom, for the dedication of the altar.
12 And he that offered his offering in the first yom [yom ha-rishon] was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah:

Numbers 7:18
18 In the second yom Nethaneel the son of Zuar, prince of Issachar, did offer:

Numbers 7:24
24 In the third yom Eliab the son of Helon, prince of the children of Zebulun, did offer:

Numbers 7:30
30 In the fourth yom Elizur the son of Shedeur, prince of the children of Reuben, did offer:

Numbers 7:36
36 In the fifth yom Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai, prince of the children of Simeon, did offer:

Numbers 7:42
42 In the sixth yom Eliasaph the son of Deuel, prince of the children of Gad, offered:

Numbers 7:48
48 In the seventh yom Elishama the son of Ammihud, prince of the children of Ephraim, offered:

Numbers 7:54
54 In the eighth yom offered Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur, prince of the children of Manasseh:

Numbers 7:60
60 In the ninth yom Abidan the son of Gideoni, prince of the children of Benjamin, offered:

Numbers 7:66
66 In the tenth yom Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai, prince of the children of Dan, offered:

Note that in the last two hours of the day the word yom appears twice in the text of each statement; but the translators have deleted one occurrence from each of the two statements because you cannot say "In the eleventh day of the day" or "In the twelfth day of the day", and thus, they claim it is merely "Hebrew idiom" to justify deleting one instance in each of the following two passages:

Numbers 7:72
72 In the eleventh yom of the yom Pagiel the son of Ocran, prince of the children of Asher, offered:
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-72.htm

Numbers 7:78
78 In the twelfth yom of the yom Ahira the son of Enan, prince of the children of Naphtali, offered:
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-78.htm

Numbers 7:84
84 This was the dedication of the altar, in the yom when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

However if we understand that a yom can also be an hour of light then we can indeed understand Num7:72 and 78 without deleting words from the text or ignoring them and pretending they are not there:

Num 7:72a "In the eleventh yom of the yom" = "In the eleventh yom-hour of the yom-day"
Num 7:78a "In the twelfth yom of the yom" = "In the twelfth yom-hour of the yom-day"

John 11:9-10
9 Yeshua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he stumbles not, because he sees the light of this world.
10 But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because there is no light in him.

 

[marhig]

You are not hearing what I am trying to say: did I say you need to be given times to pray? These things are written in the scripture for our learning and understanding: and if you do not understand such things then how can you claim they are written on your heart?

---

From the context and from the fact that the word yom appears not once but twice in each of Num7:72, and Num7:78, there is no way these are twelve days but are rather surely twelve yom-hours in a single yom-day. That is the only way to correctly undersatand the passage without removing words from the Torah, as every English translator does, at least when it comes to verses seventy-two and seventy-eight, (for they all remove one occurrance of the word yom from each verse because they do not understand how else to render it because they do not understand that a yom can also be an hour). It is for this very reason that the Master has the authority to say what he says in Jhn 11:9-10, for each of the twelve yom-hours in a full yom-day is represented by one of the twelve tribes: and Moses says that the twelve princes of the twelve tribes offered their korban each in his own yom-hour of the yom-day wherein the altar was anointed and dedicated. This all therefore takes place in a single yom-day.

Numbers 7:10-12
10 And the princes offered for dedication of the altar in the yom that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, They shall offer their offering, each prince in his yom, for the dedication of the altar.
12 And he that offered his offering in the first yom [yom ha-rishon] was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah:

Numbers 7:18
18 In the second yom Nethaneel the son of Zuar, prince of Issachar, did offer:

Numbers 7:24
24 In the third yom Eliab the son of Helon, prince of the children of Zebulun, did offer:

Numbers 7:30
30 In the fourth yom Elizur the son of Shedeur, prince of the children of Reuben, did offer:

Numbers 7:36
36 In the fifth yom Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai, prince of the children of Simeon, did offer:

Numbers 7:42
42 In the sixth yom Eliasaph the son of Deuel, prince of the children of Gad, offered:

Numbers 7:48
48 In the seventh yom Elishama the son of Ammihud, prince of the children of Ephraim, offered:

Numbers 7:54
54 In the eighth yom offered Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur, prince of the children of Manasseh:

Numbers 7:60
60 In the ninth yom Abidan the son of Gideoni, prince of the children of Benjamin, offered:

Numbers 7:66
66 In the tenth yom Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai, prince of the children of Dan, offered:

Note that in the last two hours of the day the word yom appears twice in the text of each statement; but the translators have deleted one occurrence from each of the two statements because you cannot say "In the eleventh day of the day" or "In the twelfth day of the day", and thus, they claim it is merely "Hebrew idiom" to justify deleting one instance in each of the following two passages:

Numbers 7:72
72 In the eleventh yom of the yom Pagiel the son of Ocran, prince of the children of Asher, offered:
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-72.htm

Numbers 7:78
78 In the twelfth yom of the yom Ahira the son of Enan, prince of the children of Naphtali, offered:
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-78.htm

Numbers 7:84
84 This was the dedication of the altar, in the yom when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

However if we understand that a yom can also be an hour of light then we can indeed understand Num7:72 and 78 without deleting words from the text or ignoring them and pretending they are not there:

Num 7:72a "In the eleventh yom of the yom" = "In the eleventh yom-hour of the yom-day"
Num 7:78a "In the twelfth yom of the yom" = "In the twelfth yom-hour of the yom-day"

John 11:9-10
9 Yeshua answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he stumbles not, because he sees the light of this world.
10 But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because there is no light in him.

I do hear what you say daqq, but what's I'm trying to say is that many hear are just looking at the Bible literally. There is Spiritual understanding in the scriptures. And I know that the New testament agrees with the old. But we are now brought in through Christ and not by the letter of the law, and once in Christ then the laws are written in our hearts and in our minds by the power of the Spirit, teaching us and guiding us in the truth daily.

I don't need to learn the laws in the old testament now, because God is cleaning my heart from within. It's great that you know so much and are so knowledgeable in the Bible and is so interesting to hear the way you explain things. But I'm trying to show that there is a spiritual meaning to the scriptures and not just a natural meaning as some in here only seem to see.

 

[daqq]

I do hear what you say daqq, but what's I'm trying to say is that many hear are just looking at the Bible literally. There is Spiritual understanding in the scriptures. And I know that the New testament agrees with the old. But we are now brought in through Christ and not by the letter of the law, and once in Christ then the laws are written in our hearts and in our minds by the power of the Spirit, teaching us and guiding us in the truth daily.

I don't need to learn the laws in the old testament now, because God is cleaning my heart from within. It's great that you know so much and are so knowledgeable in the Bible and is so interesting to hear the way you explain things. But I'm trying to show that there is a spiritual meaning to the scriptures and not just a natural meaning as some in here only seem to see.

If all that is so true then why do you not seem to understand the overall point? I doubt my point is lost on the YEC's here, (if any would even read my posts which they do not seem to do anyways, lol), because it is clear from what has been posted from the scripture, (including Paul), that the first chapter of Genesis is prophecy because the days are not days at all, but rather hours, and thus can only be fulfilled in Messiah, (at Golgotha), and they are certainly not twenty-four hour days as the YEC's demand. How can you just expect others to take your word for such things when you cannot provide any evidence from the scripture for what you say? It is nothing more than your word against theirs, (because they also cannot actually provide evidence for what they demand either). Are you not aware of what kind of thread you have entered? You cannot just say, "Oh, but it's a spiritual meaning of day, and not really a day", and expect anyone to believe you. I have shown you how and why they are indeed hours, and that changes everything: moreover Elohim immediately divides the light from the darkness, and since they are six yamim-hours in a single yom-day, all of it takes place in the LIGHT, "YAHI LIGHT!" (2Cor4:6).

 

[6days]

But creationists only think of one of those things at a time when trash talking tales of goddiddit; real scientists keep all of those things in mind concurrently when inferring conclusions.

Stuart

Have you ever met a real Scotsman?

 

[6days]

There is a natural and there is a Spiritual. You seem to only take the Bible literally, it is a spiritual book, written by men who walk in the Spirit inspired of God.

Marhig... Yes, I agree that there is spiritual applications to the events recorded in God's Word. I think you would agree that there was a real man by the name of Jesus...and a real crucifixion. And of course there is a spiritual application to the death and resurrection of "Last Adam".


But... I don't think you have answered my questions about "first Adam". If you don't believe the history in the Bible about Adam, then why did Last Adam have to suffer physical death?


And if the Genesis account is not literal history, then what do you do with various Bible authors (and also Jesus) who refer to it as history? How do we understand the Gospel...and the entirety of Scripture considering verses like Heb. 9:22 in NWT "Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." Are you suggesting that the physical blood (death) of Jesus was not required?

 

[marhig]

Marhig... Yes, I agree that there is spiritual applications to the events recorded in God's Word. I think you would agree that there was a real man by the name of Jesus...and a real crucifixion. And of course there is a spiritual application to the death and resurrection of "Last Adam".


But... I don't think you have answered my questions about "first Adam". If you don't believe the history in the Bible about Adam, then why did Last Adam have to suffer physical death?


And if the Genesis account is not literal history, then what do you do with various Bible authors (and also Jesus) who refer to it as history? How do we understand the Gospel...and the entirety of Scripture considering verses like Heb. 9:22 in NWT "Yes, according to the Law nearly all things are cleansed with blood, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." Are you suggesting that the physical blood (death) of Jesus was not required?

Where did i say that the Genesis account isn't literal history? I never, I believe there is a natural and a Spiritual, and I believe the account of the days of the creation, I just don't see the days as 24 hour periods. Nor do I believe that the world is 6000 years old. And it doesn't say that that the days were 24 hours or that the world is 6000 years old in Genesis either. But saying that, I don't believe in evolution either in that we came from monkeys, God created man as man and a woman, not as evolving monkeys.

Being cleansed by the blood of Christ isn't being cleansed by the natural blood from the wooden cross. Being cleansed by the blood of Christ is being cleansed by the life of Christ within. The blood poured out is the poured out life of Christ, Christ Jesus lived to bring us a new and living way, he came to bare witness of the truth and those who believe in him and have faith in God are being saved from this world through Christ by the power of the Spirit, and we are to live by the will of God and endure to the end for eternal salvation.

Jesus was saving before he went on the cross, the death on the cross isn't what saves us, we are saved by the grace of God through faith. But Jesus had to bare whatever was set before him, including the cross and suffer it and not sin, and in doing so he overcame the world and satan and is a perfect example for us, showing us the truth and showing us how to live before God.

,

 

[SUTG]

Where did i say that the Genesis account isn't literal history? I never, I believe there is a natural and a Spiritual, and I believe the account of the days of the creation, I just don't see the days as 24 hour periods. Nor do I believe that the world is 6000 years old. And it doesn't say that that the days were 24 hours or that the world is 6000 years old in Genesis either.

Isn't that generally what people mean when they say they take Genesis literally? That the world, universe, and everything was created in six literal 24 hour days? As opposed to figurative (non-literal) days.

But saying that, I don't believe in evolution either in that we came from monkeys, God created man as man and a woman, not as evolving monkeys.

This is where your worldview collides with scientific fact.

 

[ThisIsMyUserName]

Common ancestry beliefs contradict God's word and science. Evolutionist start with the conclusion and try and make the evidence fit. That is why they keep getting it wrong on things like junk DNA, pseudogenes, neanderthals, Lucy, useless appendix, poorly designed vertebrate eye argument, genetics etc etc.

That's not quite right.
You still seem rather confused about the contents of science and how it's done.

Remember we were talking about drawing conclusions from data. Not the other way around.




There doesn't have to be any contradiction with the bible, unless you try to interpret it literally (which appears to be the case). That's just placing limitations on God for no practical reason whatsoever.

 

[ThisIsMyUserName]

It's accepted by Christians who reject the very foundation of the Bible, Genesis.

No rejection. It's just a different interpretation. Genesis was never meant to be taken literally.

Because it goes against what God said in the Bible, that God made man at the beginning of creation.

Well, then you'd have to deny 90% of science!
If you look for biblical references that can be interpreted to contradict established scientific fields, you'll find enough. It's not just evolution.

 

[Right Divider]

:mock:

Well, then you'd have to deny 90% of science!
If you look for biblical references that can be interpreted to contradict established scientific fields, you'll find enough. It's not just evolution.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No rejection. It's just a different interpretation. Genesis was never meant to be taken literally.

Well, then you'd have to deny 90% of science!
If you look for biblical references that can be interpreted to contradict established scientific fields, you'll find enough. It's not just evolution.

On the contrary, it would mean that that 90% is wrong, at least partially.

Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” - Romans 3:4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:4&version=NKJV

And since Jesus is God, we listen when He says:

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” - John 5:46-47 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:46-47&version=NKJV

And Moses wrote:

For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:11&version=NKJV

Jesus also said this:

And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” - Mark 10:5-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark10:5-9&version=NKJV

Referring to what Moses wrote here:

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. - Genesis 1:27 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis1:27&version=NKJV

And here:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. - Genesis 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis2:24&version=NKJV

So Jesus obviously thought it was literal, else He wouldn't have said "from the beginning of creation, God 'made them male and female."

Evolution says that genders didn't arise until later, God says He made them Male and Female from the beginning. There is no way to reconcile one with the other.

 

[Stuu]

Have you ever met a real Scotsman?

More creationist trash talk!

One of the characteristics of creationist claims is that they only address a very small range of evidence in any one assertion. For example, the great flood that never happened, is credited by some with producing the fossil record by burying animal and plant remains in sediment. But that doesn't address the evidence from radioisotope dating, changing fossil morphology with depth, the fact that fossils are found below intact coral reefs, and the fact that different layers have different pollens in them that indicate changes in climate over large tracts of time.

It wasn't just a matter of burying stuff, it was more complicated than that. Och aye.

If evolution, on the other hand, then all of that evidence is completely consistent.

Stuart

 

[SUTG]

:mock:

He probably should have said 90% or more, but that slight error is no reason to mock him.

 

[Right Divider]

:mock:

He probably should have said 90% or more, but that slight error is no reason to mock him.