If Evolution

2003cobra

New member
Lon, I see you are rewriting the text.

You even rewrote the KJV! I wonder how your KJVOnlyist friends like your adding to the text.

I asked:
By the way, which translation did you put in your shopping basket? Is it the translation you typically and routinely use?

Those are simple questions. I can only think of one reason for your not answering: you are embarrassed about your translation shopping and do not want to admit that you did it.
 

Lon

Well-known member
As you know, Feynmann considered YE creationism to be another cargo cult.


No, it's about making inferences from evidence.

(Barbarian demonstrates that it's been well over 100 years since scientists realized the world was at least many millions of years old)



It doesn't matter what was in whatever book you remember. What matters is the truth, and as you see, the truth is that your statement denying the fact, is demonstrably wrong. I used to review textbooks, and I have a collection of old ones, going back to the early 1900s. None of them say the earth is less than millions of years old. So I have no idea what you were looking at. I know that when I was in school in the early 60s, the textbooks said billions of years old.



Not in any school I've ever seen. Can you provide us some kind of evidence to support that story?
No, how would I without a LOT of painstaking work?



Most publishers these days, don't have scientists write science textbooks. But as I said, but the early 60s at least, the were talking about billions of years old.
I 'can' put my hand on a bible. I did NOT hear 'billions' until I was in college. Why would I say it was 'quite a shock'?

Barbarian points out that an infallible source, interpreted by a fallible source, will result in a fallible interpretation)
Um, no. Proof: 2+2= "infallible" for this example. Enter fallible me: "4"
Your proof? You just did it. You were wrong (not sure if the 'source' was infallible, but the result is fallible).


But everyone says they are influenced by the Holy Spirit, and they still disagree. So that's not an infallible test, either. My guess is that the Holy Spirit doesn't even get involved in the age of the Earth.
He "didn't" influence Moses to write Genesis? :think: :noway:

The point is that if you have a fallible person interpreting a completely infallible source of information such as God or His creation, then the interpretation will be fallible.
Er "Four!" See? Sometimes I get it right. It may be too simplistic when we are talking about the nature of the Lord Jesus Christ and Higher math. Of course, in higher math, you get credit for being partially right. :think:


I trust science more than a lot of people who think they speak for Jesus. Not the same thing at all.
Not me. I love Chuck Swindoll. J.I. Packer? Excellent. R.C. Sproul, cannot do much better. Etc. Etc.




It's not uncommon for those who claim to speak for God, to confuse themselves with God. I really hope that's not what you just did here.
Again YOU intimated that, Barb. Sorry about that, had not a lot to do with me. You stand before your God. I'm not Him. Don't shoot the messenger...or ignore that he may have a correct message.




Indeed.



Everything seems simple to one who doesn't know anything about it.
Er, aced my geology class. It wasn't that hard, Barb. Was it nearly impossible for you? :noway:


I compared it to human theologies. You're very, very wrong if you think anyone's theology comes even close to completely comprehending God. Theology is not God, although a lot of "religious" people think so.
:nono: "I" said quantum physics is nowhere near as vast as the Lord Jesus Christ. You aren't 'correcting' me here.




I'm trying to encourage you to think.
Right. I've done extremely well in science and fairly well in mathematics. I'd reckon I'm an apt student to date. I'm not my daughter, but she is acing here science degree at the moment. You might be fascinated to find, as a non-Catholic, she disagrees with some of your science conclusions. My brother, also not Catholic, also with a Biology degree, ALSO disagrees with some science 'findings.' :think:
 

2003cobra

New member
You can 'think' whatever you like. I'm not baited by parlor tricks and smoke, Cobra. You've naught but a lot of air-puff.

Asking about the translation you used is not a parlor trick.

Asking if that is the translation you routinely use is not a parlor trick.

So, your duplicity is revealed.
 

6days

New member
2003cobra said:
I know the scripture says, in the second creation story, that man was formed before any plants were growing.
What you KNOW is that is dishonest. Rather than quote your preferred version of scripture, you keep trying to deceive people with your own words.

Once again... let's look at SCRIPTURE... your Preferred NRSV. First let's see what plants God created on day 3.

Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation:plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.


Now... Let's compare that to Genesis 2 , NRSV

5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground


No comment needed to see that your statement is false. SCRIPTURE does NOT say "that man was formed before any plants were growing".


When we look at the Hebrew it becomes even more obvious that Genesis 1 and 2 are consistent, and that only 2 types of plants did not exist on the sixth day. (thorny plants and cultivated grains?).
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
It doesn't matter what was in whatever book you remember. What matters is the truth, and as you see, the truth is that your statement denying the fact, is demonstrably wrong. I used to review textbooks, and I have a collection of old ones, going back to the early 1900s. None of them say the earth is less than millions of years old. So I have no idea what you were looking at. I know that when I was in school in the early 60s, the textbooks said billions of years old.

Not in any school I've ever seen. Can you provide us some kind of evidence to support that story?

No, how would I without a LOT of painstaking work?

I provided evidence for you. Can you show us anything that supports your claim?

I 'can' put my hand on a bible. I did NOT hear 'billions' until I was in college. Why would I say it was 'quite a shock'?

I don't think you lie, so I'm wondering what kind of school you went to, where they didn't use standard science textbooks.

(Barbarian notes that an infallible source, plus a fallible interpretation, is fallible)

Um, no. Proof: 2+2= "infallible" for this example. Enter fallible me: "4"

Two errors there:
1. a fallible person can still be right about some things.
2. 2+2 could be 11, if one was using base 3.

"Fallible" does not mean "always wrong."

Barbarian observes:
But everyone says they are influenced by the Holy Spirit, and they still disagree. So that's not an infallible test, either. My guess is that the Holy Spirit doesn't even get involved in the age of the Earth.

He "didn't" influence Moses to write Genesis?

He just didn't give us an age for the Earth in Genesis.

Er "Four!" See? Sometimes I get it right.

Sometimes, that would be right. But sometimes, it's not.

Barbarian observes:
It's not uncommon for those who claim to speak for God, to confuse themselves with God. I really hope that's not what you just did here.

Again YOU intimated that, Barb. Sorry about that, had not a lot to do with me.

You presented your modern interpretation of Genesis as the word of God.

(Barbarian notes that orogeny is a complicated process)

Er, aced my geology class. It wasn't that hard, Barb. Was it nearly impossible for you? :noway:

Never took a course in Earth science. Nevertheless, I have enough reading in the literature (because it's necessary for some things in paleontology) to know that it's a lot more complicated than presented in intro courses.

I was good enough to pass a test and get certified to teach it in high school.

1-s2.0-S1342937X16304750-gr4.jpg


It's one thing to grasp the concept. Quite another to actually apply to the real world.

I compared it to human theologies. You're very, very wrong if you think anyone's theology comes even close to completely comprehending God. Theology is not God, although a lot of "religious" people think so.


I said quantum physics is nowhere near as vast as the Lord Jesus Christ.

But we're talking about fallible human beings interpreting God, which is another issue entirely.

Right. I've done extremely well in science and fairly well in mathematics. I'd reckon I'm an apt student to date. I'm not my daughter, but she is acing here science degree at the moment. You might be fascinated to find, as a non-Catholic, she disagrees with some of your science conclusions. My brother, also not Catholic, also with a Biology degree, ALSO disagrees with some science 'findings.' :think:

Might be fun to discuss those. Tell us about it.
 
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The Barbarian

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As many of our readers know, the historicity of Adam and Eve is a critically important topic in the discussion of Christianity and human origins. Although BioLogos takes a firm stand on the fact that Adam and Eve could not have been the sole biological progenitors of all humans (see here), science does not rule out the possibility of a historical Adam and Eve, which opens this interesting discussion.

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/adam-and-eve-literal-or-literary/
 

2003cobra

New member
What you KNOW is that is dishonest. Rather than quote your preferred version of scripture, you keep trying to deceive people with your own words.

Once again... let's look at SCRIPTURE... your Preferred NRSV. First let's see what plants God created on day 3.

Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation:plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with the seed in it.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind, and trees of every kind bearing fruit with the seed in it. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.


Now... Let's compare that to Genesis 2 , NRSV

5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground


No comment needed to see that your statement is false. SCRIPTURE does NOT say "that man was formed before any plants were growing".


When we look at the Hebrew it becomes even more obvious that Genesis 1 and 2 are consistent, and that only 2 types of plants did not exist on the sixth day. (thorny plants and cultivated grains?).
Countered repeatedly.

Just check to previous posts.
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Stipe called me stupid. You called me dishonest. Now, if Trump calls me an adulterer, I'll have a trifecta. :banana:
Now that you've got the namecalling out of your system, how about responding sensibly to the challenge you face. :up:

The Bible says "six days."

What reason do you have that shows we should not accept the plain meaning?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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[CLOR="#800000"]As many of our readers know, the historicity of Adam and Eve is a critically important topic in the discussion of Christianity and human origins. Although BioLogos takes a firm stand on the fact that Adam and Eve could not have been the sole biological progenitors of all humans (see here), science does not rule out the possibility of a historical Adam and Eve, which opens this interesting discussion.
[/COLOR]

The Bible presents Adam and Eve as the sole biological progenitors of all humans.
 

iouae

Well-known member
As many of our readers know, the historicity of Adam and Eve is a critically important topic in the discussion of Christianity and human origins. Although BioLogos takes a firm stand on the fact that Adam and Eve could not have been the sole biological progenitors of all humans (see here), science does not rule out the possibility of a historical Adam and Eve, which opens this interesting discussion.

https://biologos.org/blogs/archive/adam-and-eve-literal-or-literary/

And yet we do find a "mitochondrial Eve" and a "Y-chromosomal Adam" from whom all living humans are descended.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:Stipe called me stupid. You called me dishonest. Now, if Trump calls me an adulterer, I'll have a trifecta.

Now that you've got the namecalling out of your system,

You have no self-awareness at all, do you, Stipe? :chuckle:

how about responding sensibly to the challenge you face.

The Bible says "six days."

As even the early Christians knew, a passage that speaks of mornings and evenings with no sun to have them, plainly could not be a literal history. You're ignoring the plain message of Genesis, just so you can justify your modern re-interpretation.

What excuse, in your re-interpretation, do you have that shows we should not accept the plain meaning?
 

iouae

Well-known member
ONLY when you are trying to figure out how long it actually takes. When you travel to those distant stars and can shine a light back to me, let me know. Genesis 1:4 :think: Revelation 21:23 A Christians FIRST priority is Christ AND what He says. All else? Contenders I'm not really concerned about until AFTER I've brought the subject matter to Him and gotten word back. John 15:5 What is my tiny brain compared to that?

Are you saying there are no such things as distant galaxies, the light from which may take millions, or billions of years travelling at "c" to reach us.

Why do you want someone to go to a distant star and shine a light back, when you know that is an impossible hoop to jump through.

Science does what it can, with what it has. And mainstream science does amazingly well. Just with a telescope from the pawn shop you can see galaxies more distant than 6000 light-years away.
 

The Barbarian

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And yet we do find a "mitochondrial Eve" and a "Y-chromosomal Adam" from whom all living humans are descended.

Of course. Now, that does not mean that "mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-Chromosome Adam" every even knew each other. The are just respectively the last female common ancestor and the last male common ancestor. Other humans provided genes as well, but these two are the last two that provided genes to every single person living today.

And of course, they lived long after Adam and Eve.

It's not impossible that a population could fall to just one pair and then recover. I'm told that all the hamsters in the United States are descended from a single pair collected in Syria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hamster

So unlikely, but not impossible.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Of course. Now, that does not mean that "mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-Chromosome Adam" every even knew each other. The are just respectively the last female common ancestor and the last male common ancestor. Other humans provided genes as well, but these two are the last two that provided genes to every single person living today.

And of course, they lived long after Adam and Eve.

It's not impossible that a population could fall to just one pair and then recover. I'm told that all the hamsters in the United States are descended from a single pair collected in Syria.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hamster

So unlikely, but not impossible.

Most domesticated plants and animals seem to have derived from a pair of common, recent (<12000 years) ancestors.

I am thinking cats, dogs, sheep, cattle, chickens, pigeons, corn, wheat etc. And maybe hamsters too.

This all adds a little weight to the Genesis story.

The fact that there are so many ancient aquatic species like sharks, crocodiles, coelacanths lends weight to the fact that the Genesis account follows on a mass extinction of terrestrial animals, but the mass extinction did not affect aquatic animals that lived before the Genesis re-population of earth.

At the start of Genesis, earth is without form and void, in darkness, and covered with water. Not good for the survival of past land animals, fine for ancient aquatic animals to have survived.

God repopulated earth with only one species of humans, Adam and Eve - unlike before Genesis, when there seems to have been many species of hominids. The Bible only concerns itself with Homo sapiens, so why should it not pick up the story only when Homo Sapiens was created?
 
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