ECT IDW's 'Supposed' 'gifted' 'Free'will

[Totton Linnet]

If I have no free will, then I cannot choose to trust in God.

IF what you say about me is true, why do you demean me, for according to you, I had no choice in the matter.

You should be demeaning God, if indeed, He gave me no choice as to believe or trust in Him or not.

Why blame me for what I cannot change?

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You are just the example of what freewill doctrine has done to the church...here you are, you claim to be saved, born again by your own freewill choice.

But I tell you your God is not my God, the Christ you proclaim is not one I know [or scripture] the Holy Spirit of the Living God you address as "it" and speak about using "it"

I know some get off saying things like that to other posters, I don't.

I wish I could embrace you as a brother....but we are not brother and sister.

The church is choc FULL of folks who did something, followed some routine by which they believe they are saved, with you it is some mental assent to Ro. 10-9. Others were called to stand forward at a meeting, others repeated a prescribed prayer. All by their own "freewill" and now they are in the church.

But no work of grace was ever done in their heart. They never were born again.

I'm not saying that nobody gets saved going forward at meeting, or by praying prayers, or by assenting to scripture. But none of these things in themselves save....only Jesus saves, He does it by His sovereign grace, imparting faith to whoever He will, yes in response to the gospel.

It is impossible for you to be saved and then say the Holy Spirit is an "it" that you "use."

 

[Totton Linnet]

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You are just the example of what freewill doctrine has done to the church...here you are, you claim to be saved, born again by your own freewill choice.

But I tell you your God is not my God, the Christ you proclaim is not one I know [or scripture] the Holy Spirit of the Living God you address as "it" and speak about using "it"

I know some get off saying things like that to other posters, I don't.

I wish I could embrace you as a brother....but we are not brother and sister.

The church is choc FULL of folks who did something, followed some routine by which they believe they are saved, with you it is some mental assent to Ro. 10-9. Others were called to stand forward at a meeting, others repeated a prescribed prayer. All by their own "freewill" and now they are in the church.

But no work of grace was ever done in their heart. They never were born again.

I'm not saying that nobody gets saved going forward at meeting, or by praying prayers, or by assenting to scripture. But none of these things in themselves save....only Jesus saves, He does it by His sovereign grace imparting faith to whoever He will, yes in response to the gospel.

It is impossible for you to be saved and then say the Holy Spirit is an "it" that you "use."

*
See all the time you think there is something you can do to get saved you never will be, firstly because you are not yet brought to the place of recognising your complete INABILITY to help yourself.

All the time you think you can do this or you can do that, God will watch you from afar [so to speak] in some way you have to be brought to the realization and position Lazarus was in... dead as a DO, that's how helpless we are to be saved...like Peter walking on water...that scream "Lord save I perish" that launching himself body and soul at the Lord.

If you could choose to be saved by your own "freewill" then to what purpose the cross?

I pray as I do for others [like meshack] that somehow God deal a death blow to your pride and bring you to recognise that your inability. For then you will be in the hopeful place.

You will say Peter did launch himself, yes but first he saw his condition, and if the Lord had not been there he would surely have perished.

 

[oatmeal]

*
You are just the example of what freewill doctrine has done to the church...here you are, you claim to be saved, born again by your own freewill choice.

But I tell you your God is not my God, the Christ you proclaim is not one I know [or scripture] the Holy Spirit of the Living God you address as "it" and speak about using "it"

I know some get off saying things like that to other posters, I don't.

I wish I could embrace you as a brother....but we are not brother and sister.

The church is choc FULL of folks who did something, followed some routine by which they believe they are saved, with you it is some mental assent to Ro. 10-9. Others were called to stand forward at a meeting, others repeated a prescribed prayer. All by their own "freewill" and now they are in the church.

But no work of grace was ever done in their heart. They never were born again.

I'm not saying that nobody gets saved going forward at meeting, or by praying prayers, or by assenting to scripture. But none of these things in themselves save....only Jesus saves, He does it by His sovereign grace, imparting faith to whoever He will, yes in response to the gospel.

It is impossible for you to be saved and then say the Holy Spirit is an "it" that you "use."

So, like I said, if I had no free will to believe God or not to believe God then why are you condemning me? If you do not like what God made me to be, complain to God, not me. Why do you insult me? If I had no choice in the matter, that it was God's doing, not mine, blame your god for making me thus.

If it was your god that made me despicable, it is your god you should insult for making me despicable, not me.

Go talk to your management if you do not like how he runs things.

I choose to believe God freely and willfully.

Too bad your god does not allow you to make any choices in life, your god is evidently a puppetmaster and ventriloquist.

 

[Totton Linnet]

So, like I said, if I had no free will to believe God or not to believe God then why are you condemning me? If you do not like what God made me to be, complain to God, not me. Why do you insult me? If I had no choice in the matter, that it was God's doing, not mine, blame your god for making me thus.

If it was your god that made me despicable, it is your god you should insult for making me despicable, not me.

Go talk to your management if you do not like how he runs things.

I choose to believe God freely and willfully.

Too bad your god does not allow you to make any choices in life, your god is evidently a puppetmaster and ventriloquist.



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Totty replied

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Of all posters on TOL you are the automaton, relentlessly pounding your theme at every opportunity, you are driven by a passion to disprove that Christ is God.

God did not make you like that Adam did, you are still in Adam.

Adam sold us into BONDAGE, now what do you not understand about that word? it does not equate to having freewill. The picture is Israel in Egypt, slaves.

This is ALL the language of Paul in regard to people without Christ...never does he speak about any so called freewill

Christ died to set us FREE [but you claim you are already free] we gain our freedom by dying with Him by faith and being raised to newness of life.

It is by means of miraculous transformation, a miracle only God can do.

It is not achieved by the intellect. And incidentally I consider all that pertains to the flesh as pretty despicable...even my flesh.

 

[Lon]

Does God have any limitations as to what He can and cannot do?

:nono: None. You can make a proposition in the negative but such 'negates' the question as being a restriction. Logically, God does what He does because it proceeds from His nature AND ability (Omni's). You'd then say "God cannot sin" but it amounts to logically the same as saying God cannot make a rock that He cannot pick up. It is 'logically' a question in error. Asking or saying "God cannot sin" is a logical error in question and/or statement.

There are no limits to what God does. "Can" and "cannot" are logical restrictions that null what is being asked.

 

[Lon]

Let us look what the Calvinists say here:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
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According to the Calvinists the Lord makes us so that we are wholly inclined to all evil then He punishes us for doing the very thing which He designed us to do:

A very few Calvinists would say 'yes' but for me, it isn't logically correct. I do not believe we were 'designed' for evil so it is important that I distance from this statement. I'm not 'that' kind of Calvinist.

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).
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-[Some] Calvinists portray the LORD as a cruel Master who would punish man severely for doing the thing which He designed them to do. The God they portray is a sadistic God!

They know nothing of the God of love.

I don't believe they think God is sadistic. Rather, they believe God is just, even if/since man isn't. We should be careful not to put words in their mouth, even if that's what we think of them. There is no point in me saying "The God of Open Theism is..." unless they say it clearly and plainly themselves. In this case, it is better to simply post Calvinist quotes and let them stand or fall on their own merits. You nor I have much convincing power apart from that because neither you nor I are well known or authoritative on the matter. I 'can' say I disagree with other Calvinists on this point and such might carry some meaning and appreciation. I do think it is meaningful to say "I disagree here on such" and I'd hope there is meaning and appreciation for such. In Him, -Lon

 

[Lon]

Regarding Romans 7:15ff

Regarding Romans 7:15ff

Looks to me like he's talking about bondage of the flesh.

"How" does it have us/Paul in bondage? What is 'the flesh' binding (I answer this myself below but it may significantly differ from you)?

Much as when a man is chained, his ability to act is limited, but his will can never be shackled.

Again, Romans 7:15,17-24 what is bound if not the will/desire?

Romans 7:25 then says "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Is your/my struggle with flesh literally with the 'body?'

I'd say (and perhaps differ from you): "No, but rather my mind, as it relates to physical actions. Flesh is talking about sin desire/will."

Where does 'will' come into your view? How does it relate or not relate to the struggle 'of the flesh?'

 

[Stripe]

"How" does it have us/Paul in bondage? What is 'the flesh' binding (I answer this myself below but it may significantly differ from you)?


Again, Romans 7:15,17-24 what is bound if not the will/desire?

Romans 7:25 then says "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Is your/my struggle with flesh literally with the 'body?'

I'd say (and perhaps differ from you): "No, but rather my mind, as it relates to physical actions. Flesh is talking about sin desire/will."

Where does 'will' come into your view? How does it relate or not relate to the struggle 'of the flesh?'

I don't know.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I do not believe we were 'designed' for evil so it is important that I distance from this statement. I'm not 'that' kind of Calvinist.

With this verse in view what does the LORD design men for?:

" For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

 

[Stripe]

Thanks for the message, Lon.

I think the best way to understand the "flesh" is through the analogy of gravity. We know gravity pulls us down, but we don't know why it works that way. We can figure out what will happen in some situations, but the inner workings remain a mystery.

So I can't tell you how the flesh binds us.

What I do know is that the decision to act is a matter of the will, which is necessarily free.