ECT I should have initiated my threads here!

[glorydaz]

Scripture states that "I would that ye all speak with tongues..." I Corinthians 14:5

and that those that are spiritual.. I Corinthians 14:37

I say that believers speak in tongues is a commandment of the Lord

What do you say?

No

 

[DAN P]

DAN, you're so much nicer than I am. :thumb:

Hi and that is my short answer as I am trying to wrap things at the store and leave for some time off !!

I am just average and the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes since reading Robert C Brock !!

dan p

 

[oatmeal]

Yes, flesh and blood mortals die. We can die physically or we can die spiritually. It's our choice.

No one can be judged before they die according to Jesus. Since he died he would know.

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world." (John 12:47)

We don't live until we die.

If the natural man, the man of body and soul only, dies, can he die spiritually? No, he cannot, he does not have spirit

However, since the gift of salvation is also the gift of eternal life which is the gift of holy spirit, Can that gift of eternal life spirit die? That is for the believer, (body and soul and spirit)? No, the eternal life spirit that we received as the gift of salvation (one of the things we were saved from is eternal death)

That gift of eternal spirit is subject to our minds and will, it does not control us, we control it. it is gift we received to profit us. I Corinthians 12:7-11 we have the God given ability to use that gift, it is the token, the seal of God upon our lives that we are His and that He is ours.

That gift of spirit I John 4:13, does not have any consciousness of its own, it is a gift we use to glorify God, to benefit ourselves and others.

When we die, that spirit goes back to God who gave it, we have no use for it when we are dead, death is the cessation of all life. Since we do not have any consciousness in death, God simply stores it for us until the dead in Christ rise from the dead.

 

[oatmeal]

The age of grace began with righteous Abel.

And if we judge ourselves by God's standard we won't be judged.

That standard is our Father's covenant.

No doubt grace is always been around, but this age of grace was founded on grace, not like the law period which was bound by the law, the law of Moses is the foundation of the age of the law.

Surely it was by God's grace that God gave the law to Moses to give to the people so that those who sought to live for God and please God could know how to do so, but even so, it is those that believe God that please God.

Hebrews 11

 

[oatmeal]

Hi and I believe I know what you are asking !!


We do not get a new body unril Christ comes back for His BODY as written in 1 Cor 15:51 and 52 when we will be TRANSFORMED !!

Your question then is BUT what of those who die BEFORE Christ coming for the B O C ??

Is this your DILEMMA and your question ?

I believe if it is that 2 Cor 5:1 should be the answer !!

dan p

Yes, that is central to the answer. thank you.

Nice to see someone who seeks answers instead of assumes that they already have them

 

[oatmeal]

Sure I can answer, Oatmeal, but I hardly think your post deserves an answer.

The body is resurrected after we die physically.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
​

Acts 24:15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.​

You'll have no choice....even if you are one in "heavenly bliss". :chuckle:

1 Cor. 15:35-38 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.​

asked and answered (above)



That verse is talking about those IN CHRIST (saved) who have already physically died before His return.



I guess they do to you, Oats. Try reading the verses in context next time.

​

Here is Oats mocking the Bible. Shame on you, Oatmeal. :nono:

If we are not dead, then why a resurrection from the dead?

If we are alive, then why do we need to be raised?

Is not your body part of who you are? Are you not body and soul and spirit? I Thessalonians 5:23

If we never actually die, then what is the point of John 3:16? If death is not death what did Jesus Christ accomplish that we did not already have?

If death is not death, then Jesus Christ did not die. If he did not die then what did he accomplish by pretending to die? What then is all the talk about his sacrificial death if he did not die?

Did the law require the death of the animals that were sacrificed? Didn't they die? or did they go to heaven as well?

Why is there a resurrection of the just and the unjust if they are alive?

Do the unjust have spirit? are they called unjust because they are believers who received the gift of holy spirit from God or because they rejected God thus did not receive the gift from God?

If the unjust did not die, then they must have eternal life as well! If they have eternal life then why does scripture talk about believing to receive the gift of eternal life?

How does I Cor 15 support your conclusion?

It says the dead have to be quickened, made alive, for them to be alive

The seed is dead until the right conditions are there. No dried up seed sprouts of its own, it needs moisture, soil, warmth, sunlight etc to germinate. Why? because without those things it is dead. It needs input from outside of itself to sprout to be quickened, to be made alive.

Oh, me, mock scripture? No.

However seeing you seem to think that death does not mean dead, I am asking YOU, does evil not mean evil, does good not mean good, does light not mean light?

If I am mocking anything, which I am not, but pointing out the error of what you have been taught, if I am mocking anything it is the foolish inconsistency of what your erroneous doctrine implies

 

[oatmeal]

No

Why do you not respect the commandments of the Lord and seek out to do them?

 

[oatmeal]

To suggest that the dead are not really dead but floating around in heaven somewhere is to fall for the same lie that Eve fell way back in the garden of Eden.

God said, "ye shall surely die"

Genesis 2:16-17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:4

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Either you believe God and realize that death is real

or you believe the serpent, the Devil, Satan, that you do not really die, you just go to a better place!

How do you like them apples?

 

[Truster]

By death we* understand mortality. Thou shalt surely become mortal....and all thy descendants. This was first proven in Abel.

we* the regenerate.

 

[jamie]

If the natural man, the man of body and soul only, dies, can he die spiritually? No, he cannot, he does not have spirit

The commandments are spiritual.

"For we know that the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14)

You may not know that but we know that.

Since the commandments are spiritual, violation imposes spiritual death.

God told Adam that if he sinned he would die and die.

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die die.'" (Genesis 2:16-17)

One is physical death the other is spiritual death.

Physical death is temporary, spiritual death is eternal.

 

[jamie]

No doubt grace is always been around, but this age of grace was founded on grace, not like the law period which was bound by the law, the law of Moses is the foundation of the age of the law.

The law was given to Israel through Moses on the Day of Pentecost at Mt. Sinai.

Grace was given to Israel through Peter on the Day of Pentecost at Jerusalem.

Therefore, Paul who was an advocate of the law received grace.

Since Paul had received grace he began to teach grace.

It was explained to Paul that the Mosaic law had ended.

"What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made." (Galatians 3:19)

The Seed came and the law for Israel ended and grace for Israel began.

The keys to the kingdom were given to Peter.

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:19)

One of those keys is grace. We enter the kingdom by Christ's grace.

 

[oatmeal]

The commandments are spiritual.

"For we know that the law is spiritual" (Romans 7:14)

You may not know that but we know that.

Since the commandments are spiritual, violation imposes spiritual death.

God told Adam that if he sinned he would die and die.

"And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die die.'" (Genesis 2:16-17)

One is physical death the other is spiritual death.

Physical death is temporary, spiritual death is eternal.

How about some chapters and verses to show me where you read what you state?

Spiritual death is eternal?

Did Jesus die? Then he had to die spiritually as well then.

Right?

 

[jamie]

If the natural man, the man of body and soul only, dies, can he die spiritually? No, he cannot, he does not have spirit

All souls have a spirit.

Humans have a spirit. Dogs have a spirit. Whales have a spirit.

Every soul is guided by its spirit.

The separation of body and spirit is death.

The spirit returns to God and the body decomposes.

Maggots never die, they become flies and produce more maggots.

 

[jamie]

How about some chapters and verses to show me where you read what you state?

Spiritual death is eternal?

Did Jesus die? Then he had to die spiritually as well then.

Right?

Right. The Father separated himself from Jesus.

Jesus died physically and he died spiritually and was buried.

Three days later he got up and walked out of his tomb.

Hey, tombs are dark and there is not much action.

Outside is better.

 

[oatmeal]

All souls have a spirit.

Humans have a spirit. Dogs have a spirit. Whales have a spirit.

Every soul is guided by its spirit.

The separation of body and spirit is death.

The spirit returns to God and the body decomposes.

Maggots never die, they become flies and produce more maggots.

Great theory, where the scriptures you read to reach those conclusions?

 

[oatmeal]

Right. The Father separated himself from Jesus.

Jesus died physically and he died spiritually and was buried.

Three days later he got up and walked out of his tomb.

Hey, tombs are dark and there is not much action.

Outside is better.

Are you referring to Matthew 27:46?

 

[glorydaz]

If we are not dead, then why a resurrection from the dead?

If we are alive, then why do we need to be raised?

Is not your body part of who you are? Are you not body and soul and spirit? I Thessalonians 5:23

If we never actually die, then what is the point of John 3:16? If death is not death what did Jesus Christ accomplish that we did not already have?

If death is not death, then Jesus Christ did not die. If he did not die then what did he accomplish by pretending to die? What then is all the talk about his sacrificial death if he did not die?

Did the law require the death of the animals that were sacrificed? Didn't they die? or did they go to heaven as well?

Why is there a resurrection of the just and the unjust if they are alive?

Do the unjust have spirit? are they called unjust because they are believers who received the gift of holy spirit from God or because they rejected God thus did not receive the gift from God?

If the unjust did not die, then they must have eternal life as well! If they have eternal life then why does scripture talk about believing to receive the gift of eternal life?

How does I Cor 15 support your conclusion?

It says the dead have to be quickened, made alive, for them to be alive

The seed is dead until the right conditions are there. No dried up seed sprouts of its own, it needs moisture, soil, warmth, sunlight etc to germinate. Why? because without those things it is dead. It needs input from outside of itself to sprout to be quickened, to be made alive.

Oh, me, mock scripture? No.

However seeing you seem to think that death does not mean dead, I am asking YOU, does evil not mean evil, does good not mean good, does light not mean light?

If I am mocking anything, which I am not, but pointing out the error of what you have been taught, if I am mocking anything it is the foolish inconsistency of what your erroneous doctrine implies

Quite an ungodly rant there, Oats.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

If we must look to the source of your lack of knowledge and lack of LIFE, we need look no farther than your denial of Jesus Christ being Creator, Saviour and God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

 

[glorydaz]

Right. The Father separated himself from Jesus.

Jesus died physically and he died spiritually and was buried.

Three days later he got up and walked out of his tomb.

Hey, tombs are dark and there is not much action.

Outside is better.

Really? So He commended His dead spirit to the Father? :noway:

 

[oatmeal]

Quite an ungodly rant there, Oats.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

If we must look to the source of your lack of knowledge and lack of LIFE, we need look no farther than your denial of Jesus Christ being Creator, Saviour and God.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.​

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

Not at all.

I am simply pointing out the error of your theology.

Clearly, you have no interest in answering my questions.

I should have named this thread like the similar one I started.

"Who will answer my questions?"

Evidently, you will not.

But I give you one more chance.

But I will rephrase it for your sake.

If we are not dead after we die, but alive, then why a resurrection from the dead?

Or, if we are alive after we die, then death is not death, then why should I believe that alive is alive?

If death does not mean death and life does not mean life why use those words at all?

they are meaningless if that is the case.

Why doesn't dead mean dead?

Why doesn't alive mean alive?

Why would scripture speak of death if death is not death but life?

If you wish to bring up other issues, that is your business, but the fact remains, you do not have scriptural answers for my questions.

You have your theology on your side, but not scripture

You prove your theology by quoting your theology, but not by referring to scripture

Why not, this is "Theology on Line" not scripture on line, now is it?

 

[glorydaz]

Not at all.

I am simply pointing out the error of your theology.

Clearly, you have no interest in answering my questions.

I should have named this thread like the similar one I started.

"Who will answer my questions?"

Evidently, you will not.

But I give you one more chance.

But I will rephrase it for your sake.

If we are not dead after we die, but alive, then why a resurrection from the dead?

Or, if we are alive after we die, then death is not death, then why should I believe that alive is alive?

If death does not mean death and life does not mean life why use those words at all?

they are meaningless if that is the case.

Why doesn't dead mean dead?

Why doesn't alive mean alive?

Why would scripture speak of death if death is not death but life?

If you wish to bring up other issues, that is your business, but the fact remains, you do not have scriptural answers for my questions.

You have your theology on your side, but not scripture

You prove your theology by quoting your theology, but not by referring to scripture

Why not, this is "Theology on Line" not scripture on line, now is it?

There is nothing complicated about our putting off this tent in which we live....by dying physically. Resurrection speaks of the body (which goes back to the dust), and is raised a spiritual body. That is not my "theology", that is God's written word. It's the Bible you're disbelieving and arguing against....not me and my "theology". I'm a bit disappointed in you, Oats. I really thought you were on the brink of believing that Christ died, was buried, and rose from the dead. That's the Gospel, and that's exactly what you are denying with your foolish questions.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. :think: