I never talk to Jesus or the Holy Spirit

[Hoping]

I don't see how these verses support the doctrinal error of baptismal regeneration.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Like Peter said in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We are cleansed at our immersion into Christ and into His blood.

1 John 1:7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

As it is written in 1 John 5:8..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
They all agree in one.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

As it is written in Rom 6:4..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
The old man must die before a new creature can take its place.

Perhaps it is because baptismal regeneration is not an error.

 

[Hoping]

I assume you meant to reference Colossians 2:12?

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus was 'buried' in a dry cave, not water, but we are not buried in the cave with Jesus. We are in type buried in death with Jesus, which was typified by the rite of water baptism just like Moses' baptism in the cloud and the sea typified the death of the old nature and birth of the new nature in today's Christians and eating the manna typified eating Jesus' body (the Word of God made flesh.)

I was addressing the cleansing in 1 John 1:7,..."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:13)
As Rom 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
It is in the likeness of, not the exactness of, our "planting together".
And fortunately for us, our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ are actual events, and not just a rite.

 

[Hoping]

Hoping is one of the many so-called Christians that cannot read "baptism" without thinking that water is involved.

I am also one of the Christians who believes I was actually killed buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I also believe Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
That kind of faith makes it easier to live without sinning...to the glory of God and to the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[marke]

Like Peter said in Acts 2:38..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We are cleansed at our immersion into Christ and into His blood.

You ignore many verses that do not mention baptism as a necessary part of salvation and then post Acts 2:38 as if it is superior to all other verses for mentioning the word "baptized." You err. Peter was not telling the Jews they could follow a procedural roadmap into heaven, but was telling Jews they must accept John the Baptist's message and turn to Jesus for salvation, publicly acknowledging their faith in Christ, to be saved. Baptism does not save them, faith in Christ saves them, as attest all other scriptures on salvation.

Consider your misunderstanding of the wording in Acts 2:38. If the wording in Acts 2:38 demands we interpret the passage to say we must be baptized "for" the remission of sins, then how do you read this passage in Mark 1?

40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.

43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;

44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Jesus told the cleansed leper to go to the priest and offer the OT sacrifice "for they cleansing." The leper was not offering the sacrifice in order to be cleansed, but as a testimony that he had already been cleansed.

 

[marke]

As it is written in 1 John 5:8..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
They all agree in one.

As it is written in Rom 6:4..."Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
The old man must die before a new creature can take its place.

Perhaps it is because baptismal regeneration is not an error.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let's analyze these verses. What is said? We are baptized into Jesus. We are crucified on the cross with Jesus. We are buried in the tomb with Jesus by baptism. We have been planted in good soil with Jesus. How can any Bible student not understand that these things, though real, were not physically true but were and are spiritual applications of the truth about salvation?

Look also at other statements:

We are dead to sin.
Sin has been destroyed.
We are free from sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us.
We only died to sin once and are now alive forevermore.

The wrong interpretation of these verses in Chapter 6 leaves those who misinterpret the verses with no explanation for these verses in Chapter 7:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The Bible is not meant to be interpreted intellectually, but spiritually. We are free from sin spiritually after salvation yet we are not free in ways pertaining to our flesh. That is why we are told to crucify (not baptize) the flesh regularly after we are saved and to walk with God in the Spirit.

 

[Hoping]

You ignore many verses that do not mention baptism as a necessary part of salvation

Not all verses are relevant to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Rom 6:3-7 are a perfect example of that, addressing the death of the old man and resurrection of the new man instead...during baptism

and then post Acts 2:38 as if it is superior to all other verses for mentioning the word "baptized."

It is, as it is the first NT mention of baptism in answer to the question..."What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)

You err. Peter was not telling the Jews they could follow a procedural roadmap into heaven, but was telling Jews they must accept John the Baptist's message and turn to Jesus for salvation, publicly acknowledging their faith in Christ, to be saved. Baptism does not save them, faith in Christ saves them, as attest all other scriptures on salvation.

Peter also told them to repent, and if they did they would receive the gift of the holy Ghost like they had.
Another two elements of the "procedure".

Consider your misunderstanding of the wording in Acts 2:38. If the wording in Acts 2:38 demands we interpret the passage to say we must be baptized "for" the remission of sins, then how do you read this passage in Mark 1?

40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
41 And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to blaze abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into the city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.

Jesus told the cleansed leper to go to the priest and offer the OT sacrifice "for they cleansing." The leper was not offering the sacrifice in order to be cleansed, but as a testimony that he had already been cleansed.

Jesus cleansing the leper is OT and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to have your past sins remitted is NT.
Your POV also doesn't hold up for the Ethiopian eunuch or for Cornelius or for the twelve at Ephesus.
Or for that matter, Paul while at Damascus.
They were all baptized to have their sins washed away.
Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
That is the clearest primary function of water baptism we can read about, after Acts 2:38.

 

[Hoping]

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let's analyze these verses. What is said? We are baptized into Jesus. We are crucified on the cross with Jesus. We are buried in the tomb with Jesus by baptism. We have been planted in good soil with Jesus. How can any Bible student not understand that these things, though real, were not physically true but were and are spiritual applications of the truth about salvation?
Look also at other statements:
We are dead to sin.
Sin has been destroyed.
We are free from sin. Sin no longer has dominion over us.
We only died to sin once and are now alive forevermore.

That was a great analysis of the second function of water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins.

The wrong interpretation of these verses in Chapter 6 leaves those who misinterpret the verses with no explanation for these verses in Chapter 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The Bible is not meant to be interpreted intellectually, but spiritually. We are free from sin spiritually after salvation yet we are not free in ways pertaining to our flesh. That is why we are told to crucify (not baptize) the flesh regularly after we are saved and to walk with God in the Spirit.

Many have misinterpreted Rom 7 to accuse Paul of still living in sin.
They can't see that he is lamenting his former, pre-conversion, life in the flesh.
Unfortunately, they use it as an excuse to continue in their own sins too, when they could have been walking in the Spirit all along.

 

[marke]

I was addressing the cleansing in 1 John 1:7,..."And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:13)
As Rom 6:5 says..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"
It is in the likeness of, not the exactness of, our "planting together".
And fortunately for us, our death, burial, and resurrection with Christ are actual events, and not just a rite.

The likeness of our death in Christ is portrayed in the Bible as a baptism, a burial, a crucifixion, and a planting. Are you saying these are physical and not spiritual?

 

[marke]

I am also one of the Christians who believes I was actually killed buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I also believe Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
That kind of faith makes it easier to live without sinning...to the glory of God and to the name of Jesus Christ.

Am I to assume you think you cannot sin anymore since Romans 6:2 says Christians are dead to sin? I believe the Apostle Paul was also dead to sin spiritually when he wrote these words, but not completely dead to sin physically, since he said this:


Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

 

[marke]

Not all verses are relevant to water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
Rom 6:3-7 are a perfect example of that, addressing the death of the old man and resurrection of the new man instead...during baptism

You are mistaken. Romans 6 refers to our crucifixion on the cross with Christ, not our burial by baptism with Him in the tomb.

It is, as it is the first NT mention of baptism in answer to the question..."What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)

Baptism was taught and practiced by John the Baptist who was preparing the way for Christ's first return and the birth of His Church. Tongues were spoken by early church members as a testimony to unbelieving Jews, just as baptism was designed to be a witness to Jews of Christ's institution of baptism in the Holy Spirit rather than offering sacrifices, to enter the Holy of Holies with God. The importance of baptism as a sign and tongues as a sign diminished as time went on and God gradually moved away from Israel and focused attention on His Church.

The Gospel was committed to the 12 Apostles (Jews) with the command to preach first to the Jews, then to Samaria, then to the Gentiles. We see Peter going first to the Jews, then to Samaria, and then to the Gentile Cornelius. Peter preached baptism early in his ministry, but not to Cornelius. In fact, it was when preaching to Cornelius that Peter first saw that baptism was about Spirit baptism, not water baptism.
Acrts 10

12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

There is no indication Peter encouraged Cornelius to get baptized in water.

Peter also told them to repent, and if they did they would receive the gift of the holy Ghost like they had.
Another two elements of the "procedure".

Jesus cleansing the leper is OT and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to have your past sins remitted is NT.
Your POV also doesn't hold up for the Ethiopian eunuch or for Cornelius or for the twelve at Ephesus.
Or for that matter, Paul while at Damascus.
They were all baptized to have their sins washed away.
Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."
That is the clearest primary function of water baptism we can read about, after Acts 2:38.

Peter preached baptism to Jews in the first 9 chapters of Acts, and Ananias (a Jew) preached baptism to Saul (a Jew.) But baptism is not mentioned as a necessity to Gentiles as a witness of their saving faith in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

God did not send Paul to preach baptism to Gentiles, He sent Paul to preach the Gospel instead.

 

[glorydaz]

Even that spirit baptism that Peter saw was not about being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It was only about the Holy Spirit coming upon people like days of old. That was totally different than being indwelt and sealed by the Spirit upon our belief in Paul's gospel.

 

[marke]

That was a great analysis of the second function of water baptism, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins.

Many have misinterpreted Rom 7 to accuse Paul of still living in sin.
They can't see that he is lamenting his former, pre-conversion, life in the flesh.
Unfortunately, they use it as an excuse to continue in their own sins too, when they could have been walking in the Spirit all along.

You again miss key points in Paul's testimony in Romans 7.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Allow me to point out a few things.

1. Paul said "I am carnal", not "I was carnal."
2. He said "I do those things I hate," not "I once did those things I hate."
3. He said, "In my flesh dwelleth no good thing," not "In my flesh once dwelt no good thing."
4. He said, "the evil which I would not, that I do," not "the evil that I once hated I no longer do."
5. He said, "with the mind I serve God, but with the flesh, I serve sin," not, "I now serve God with the mind and the flesh, whereas I once just served sin in the flesh."

 

[Right Divider]

You are mistaken. Romans 6 refers to our crucifixion on the cross with Christ, not our burial by baptism with Him in the tomb.

Baptism was taught and practiced by John the Baptist who was preparing the way for Christ's first return and the birth of His Church.

Baptism was nothing new when J the B baptized Israel.
Jesus did not come to His people Israel to establish a new "Church". He came to establish His kingdom on the earth.

Tongues were spoken by early church members as a testimony to unbelieving Jews, just as baptism was designed to be a witness to Jews of Christ's institution of baptism in the Holy Spirit rather than offering sacrifices, to enter the Holy of Holies with God.

Baptism was nothing new. Israel had lots of them.

Heb 6:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(6:2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The importance of baptism as a sign and tongues as a sign diminished as time went on and God gradually moved away from Israel and focused attention on His Church.

God did create a "church" that He calls the body of Christ. He established it with Paul as its first member.

Paul is the PATTERN for us today.

1Tim 1:16 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[glorydaz]

You again miss key points in Paul's testimony in Romans 7.

esh the law of sin.

Allow me to point out a few things.

1. Paul said "I am carnal", not "I was carnal."
2. He said "I do those things I hate," not "I once did those things I hate."
3. He said, "In my flesh dwelleth no good thing," not "In my flesh once dwelt no good thing."
4. He said, "the evil which I would not, that I do," not "the evil that I once hated I no longer do."
5. He said, "with the mind I serve God, but with the flesh, I serve sin," not, "I now serve God with the mind and the flesh, whereas I once just served sin in the flesh."

Paul was speaking as someone under the law...who was still carnal.
The law of sin and death.

That is not the present Paul who can do all things though Christ.

If you go on you'll see this.

Romans 8:2-4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Jefferson]

OK.

I do notice the "to Him", but it is in the name of Jesus Christ that we address the Father to begin with.

Is Jesus your Lord?
If we are to trust, obey, love Him, and potentially die for Him, why do you think it inopportune to address Him?

I would love it if there were at least one verse where Paul specifically addressed the Son, but there just isn't.

 

[Right Divider]

I would love it if there were at least one verse where Paul specifically addressed the Son, but there just isn't.

There are many verses were Paul calls Jesus God. We are to pray to God.

I'm not sure why you are so fixated on prayers only to one member of the Godhead.

 

[Jefferson]

I'm not sure why you are so fixated on prayers only to one member of the Godhead.

Because Paul was so fixated. Paul specifically singled out the Father in prayer on more than one occasion. Yet Paul deliberately refused to ever specifically single out the Son in prayer.

 

[glorydaz]

I would love it if there were at least one verse where Paul specifically addressed the Son, but there just isn't.

Paul had constant communication with the Risen Son of God.

 

[Right Divider]

Because Paul was so fixated. Paul specifically singled out the Father in prayer on more than one occasion. Yet Paul deliberately refused to ever specifically single out the Son in prayer.

Please demonstrate Paul's DELIBERATE REFUSAL.

Paul said to and did pray to God....

Rom 10:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:1) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 15:30 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:30) Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in [your] prayers to God for me;

1Cor 11:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:13) Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

2Cor 13:7 (AKJV/PCE)
(13:7) Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Phil 4:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:6) Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

1Thess 1:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:2) We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

Phlm 1:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:4) I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers,

Jesus is God.

So, I think that you make far too much about praying only to the Father.

 

[glorydaz]

Please demonstrate Paul's DELIBERATE REFUSAL.

Paul said to and did pray to God....

Rom 10:1 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:1) Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Rom 15:30 (AKJV/PCE)
(15:30) Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in [your] prayers to God for me;

1Cor 11:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(11:13) Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

2Cor 13:7 (AKJV/PCE)
(13:7) Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

Phil 4:6 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:6) Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

1Thess 1:2 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:2) We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;

Phlm 1:4 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:4) I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers,

Jesus is God.

So, I think that you make far too much about praying only to the Father.

Great point. And Paul was more than explicit about Jesus being the Creator God.