I NEVER KNEW YOU

[Derf]

Do you want to answer the question with a yes or no ?

We seem to be just going around in circles.:luigi:
This is what you replied with when I answered "Yes":

Yesterday, 10:35 AM

Yes

What scripture do you have that states that ?

So, as I said in my post, which you apparently didn't care to read, you don't seem like you want to discuss any answer but a preselected one.

 

[beloved57]

We seem to be just going around in circles.:luigi:
This is what you replied with when I answered "Yes":


So, as I said in my post, which you apparently didn't care to read, you don't seem like you want to discuss any answer but a preselected one.

You say yes ! Now you must prove it with scripture ! I don't believe you !

 

[Derf]

You say yes ! Now you must prove it with scripture ! I don't believe you !

So you DO want more than a yes or no? I'm getting confused. But let's go back to my other post, the one you replied to asking for a mere "yes or no".

here it is:

What scripture do you have that states that ?

That goes beyond "yes or no". This is the post I was responding to:

Yes or No?

This is what you wrote to Chrysostom:

I know you are scared to answer that question with a simple yes or no !

And that was after Chrys had given you a "yes" answer with some reasoning attached.

So apparently you're not just looking for just a "simple yes or no", nor will you accept a reason for the yes or no. The only thing you seem to be happy with is someone who agrees with you. So it seems like what you are looking for is an argument--something to divide over. Christ said he came to bring not peace, but division ("a sword")--but not within his church. In his church he prayed for oneness/unity--John 17:21-22. This free will debate is a valid debate, but if we make our own brand of doctrine an idol (on either side), is it not defeating the cause Christ prayed for? For a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And we are called to gently guide those that are not correct back to the truth--Gal 6:1.

Now, if Christ PRAYED for a certain thing (unity in John 17:21-22), surely that must be one place where His decreed will and His revealed will are both the same, for if He asks for it, and He and His father are one, surely the Father will grant that request, if prayer is at all effective. If the Father did not grant that request, meaning His decreed will was that the church would NOT be one, then it shows that there really is no point to prayer at all, for not even Jesus could get a prayer answered by His Father. And if, as some say, prayer is not meant to change God's mind, since He already has decided how he's going to act from all eternity past, but instead it is meant to change US when we prayer, then Jesus, who is God and therefore cannot change, was praying a futile and ineffectual prayer!

But, if Jesus prayed for unity and actually expected His Father to answer that prayer in the affirmative, then we who are believers should not be starting arguments just for the sake of argumentation. (Full confession, though--I've been known to do the same, to my shame.:mmph

Not only that, but John 17:22 says that Christ stated that He has already given us (His church) the glory God gave Him, "that they may be one, even as we are one:". So if Jesus has already given us the glory God gave Him, and that glory is effective in doing what He purposed it to do--making us one--then by your divisive spirit, you are doing the very thing Christ prayed would not be the case.

So, after all that, do you want a simple yes or no, or not? Or do you want to fight?

You decide. But here's my answer to your question--the not so simple answer, with scripture (above) to back it up. Is it possible for us to thwart the will of God, that even to those He died for He might say later on, I never knew you? Yes. But it grieves His heart to do so.

 

[beloved57]

So you DO want more than a yes or no? I'm getting confused. But let's go back to my other post, the one you replied to asking for a mere "yes or no".

here it is:

You said yes but have not proved it with scripture ! I don't believe the scripture teachs that Christ never knew them He loved and died for Eph 5:25 !

 

[Derf]

You said yes but have not proved it with scripture ! I don't believe the scripture teachs that Christ never knew them He loved and died for Eph 5:25 !

Ok, how do we know for whom Christ died? John 3:16 is one of the best, saying that God loved "the world". And the next verse (John 3:17) says Christ came not to condemn "the world", but that "the world" through him could ("might") be saved.

So Christ is not trying to condemn, but rather save "the world" and He died for "the world".

Would Jesus then say to anybody that is part of "the world" that He never knew them?

Maybe you will say that "the world" is only the part that He plans to save, and not the whole world. In which case I would say that He indeed came to condemn that part that He had no plan to save, for that appears to be the purpose of the contrast in the verse.

What is "the world"? Certainly not all the sinless, righteous people, for they don't need a savior. Here's a sampling of the usage of "the world" in the gospels:
Mat 5:14
Mat 13:38
Mat 18:7
Luk 12:30
Jhn 1:10
Jhn 1:29
Jhn 3:16
Jhn 3:17
Jhn 3:19
Jhn 4:42
Jhn 6:14
Jhn 6:33
Jhn 6:51
Jhn 7:4
Jhn 7:7
Jhn 8:12
Jhn 8:26
Jhn 9:5
Jhn 10:36
Jhn 11:27
Jhn 12:46
Jhn 12:47
Jhn 13:1
Jhn 14:17
Jhn 14:19
Jhn 14:22
Jhn 15:18
Jhn 15:19
Note that the later of those (in John) were of a more negative nature--the world "hates" Jesus and could be expected to hate his disciples. And such were some of us--haters of God, sinners, those that need a savior. So did Jesus come to save "the world", the world that hates him? I think He must have, as He came while we were yet sinners--and a sinner is one who refuses to do the will of God. If those that do the will of God are those that love Him (if you love me, keep my commandments--John 14:15), aren't those that don't do the will of God those that hate him? So Jesus came to save those that hate Him--those that sin.

But here's another thought. We know that we have a sin nature because of Adam--or at least we are all condemned to die because of Adam's sin. But after the act of sin--Adam eating the fruit--God gave them the the hope of a future salvation in the promise of the "seed of the woman" who would bruise the serpent's head. God gave this promise to whom??? Well, to Satan, but in the hearing of Adam and Eve, so in reality it was a promise to them. So if in Adam we sinned because of Adam's sin, then in Adam we were given the promise of "the seed of the woman". And who was in Adam? EVERYBODY. The world. God gave that promise to all the children of Adam.

So, are there any in that group to which He will say "I never knew you" that are not offspring of Adam?

Therefore Jesus "knew" everybody, and offered himself as a sacrifice for "everybody", but some of that "everybody" don't get the benefits of His "knowing" them.

So the answer to your question, from scripture, is "Yes". Jesus would say to some that He died for "I never knew you."

 

[beloved57]

Ok, how do we know for whom Christ died? John 3:16 is one of the best, saying that God loved "the world". And the next verse (John 3:17) says Christ came not to condemn "the world", but that "the world" through him could ("might") be saved.

So Christ is not trying to condemn, but rather save "the world" and He died for "the world".

Would Jesus then say to anybody that is part of "the world" that He never knew them?

Maybe you will say that "the world" is only the part that He plans to save, and not the whole world. In which case I would say that He indeed came to condemn that part that He had no plan to save, for that appears to be the purpose of the contrast in the verse.

What is "the world"? Certainly not all the sinless, righteous people, for they don't need a savior. Here's a sampling of the usage of "the world" in the gospels:
Mat 5:14
Mat 13:38
Mat 18:7
Luk 12:30
Jhn 1:10
Jhn 1:29
Jhn 3:16
Jhn 3:17
Jhn 3:19
Jhn 4:42
Jhn 6:14
Jhn 6:33
Jhn 6:51
Jhn 7:4
Jhn 7:7
Jhn 8:12
Jhn 8:26
Jhn 9:5
Jhn 10:36
Jhn 11:27
Jhn 12:46
Jhn 12:47
Jhn 13:1
Jhn 14:17
Jhn 14:19
Jhn 14:22
Jhn 15:18
Jhn 15:19
Note that the later of those (in John) were of a more negative nature--the world "hates" Jesus and could be expected to hate his disciples. And such were some of us--haters of God, sinners, those that need a savior. So did Jesus come to save "the world", the world that hates him? I think He must have, as He came while we were yet sinners--and a sinner is one who refuses to do the will of God. If those that do the will of God are those that love Him (if you love me, keep my commandments--John 14:15), aren't those that don't do the will of God those that hate him? So Jesus came to save those that hate Him--those that sin.

But here's another thought. We know that we have a sin nature because of Adam--or at least we are all condemned to die because of Adam's sin. But after the act of sin--Adam eating the fruit--God gave them the the hope of a future salvation in the promise of the "seed of the woman" who would bruise the serpent's head. God gave this promise to whom??? Well, to Satan, but in the hearing of Adam and Eve, so in reality it was a promise to them. So if in Adam we sinned because of Adam's sin, then in Adam we were given the promise of "the seed of the woman". And who was in Adam? EVERYBODY. The world. God gave that promise to all the children of Adam.

So, are there any in that group to which He will say "I never knew you" that are not offspring of Adam?

Therefore Jesus "knew" everybody, and offered himself as a sacrifice for "everybody", but some of that "everybody" don't get the benefits of His "knowing" them.

So the answer to your question, from scripture, is "Yes". Jesus would say to some that He died for "I never knew you."

You have not proved it with scripture !

 

[patrick jane]

You say yes ! Now you must prove it with scripture ! I don't believe you !

How convenient since you don't believe scripture either - :chuckle:

 

[beloved57]

How convenient since you don't believe scripture either - :chuckle:

We will find out who did and didn't shortly at the Judgment!

 

[Derf]

You have not proved it with scripture !

Based on whose standard of proof?

 

[beloved57]

Based on whose standard of proof?

That is a stupid unlearned question ! Who are you in discuss with right now ?

 

[exminister]

I NEVER KNEW YOU

Jesus says this to a person that does NOT get into the KINGDOM

WHY ????

We need a team of lawyers to get to the bottom of this asap. What did Jesus know and when did he know it.

:sherlock:

 

[Derf]

That is a stupid unlearned question ! Who are you in discuss with right now ?

I thought I was "in discuss" with you. Aren't we having a discussion now?

Maybe you can explain to me why my question, "by whose standard of proof?" is more stupid and unlearned than yours, "Who are you in discuss with right now?"

But I appreciate the recognition that you have trouble answering my questions and instead need to resort to insults. That's a straightforward admission of defeat.

 

[beloved57]

I thought I was "in discuss" with you. Aren't we having a discussion now?

Maybe you can explain to me why my question, "by whose standard of proof?" is more stupid and unlearned than yours, "Who are you in discuss with right now?"

But I appreciate the recognition that you have trouble answering my questions and instead need to resort to insults. That's a straightforward admission of defeat.

You said yes but you have failed to provide scripture that says that Christ tells them He loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25 that He Never knew them as He will say to these Matt 7:23 ! I don't believe you !

 

[flintstoned]

The "knew" here is God's love before time...

How can he know you :freak: before you are created? lain:

See:

The bible specifically says that God foreknows his elect before the foundation of the world ("for those God foreknew he also predestined"). These are the same "known" sheep who believe in Jesus and are saved. Those who God did not foreknow were the ones who were not saved in the end "depart, I never knew ye."

[FONT=&quot]In the OT and NT you will see that the verb "to know" is very often used to indicate having a special love for, having chosen someone, having set aside for a [FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]special[/FONT] purpose, [/FONT]or having an intimate relationship with. In this way, foreknow ("know" beforehand) does not merely suggest "a passive gathering of infallible knowledge of the future actions of free creatures," [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but rather a special love that God has for those he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

In the same way, you can see how the word "foreknow" is translated when referring to Jesus having been chosen/foreordained/foreknown in 1 Peter 1:20:[/FONT]

1 Peter 1:20
New International Version
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

New Living Translation
God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but he has now revealed him to you in these last days.

English Standard Version
He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

New American Standard Bible
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

King James Bible
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,​

http://www.theologyonline.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Derf]

You said yes but you have failed to provide scripture that says that Christ tells them He loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25 that He Never knew them as He will say to these Matt 7:23 ! I don't believe you !

Providing scripture and you reading through the scriptures provided are 2 different things. I can show you my post where I provided the scripture. Can you show me your post where you show you actually read them followed by actual discussion?

 

[beloved57]

Providing scripture and you reading through the scriptures provided are 2 different things. I can show you my post where I provided the scripture. Can you show me your post where you show you actually read them followed by actual discussion?

I have to read the scripture which you provide to see if it says that Christ told some that He loved and gave Himself for, that He Never knew them !

 

[Derf]

I have to read the scripture which you provide to see if it says that Christ told some that He loved and gave Himself for, that He Never knew them !

Sounds good. Let me know what you think. Remember that when He told those in the OP that He never knew them, it wasn't combined with the other part--that He loved and gave His life for them. You have to read more than a single passage to get the whole message.

The passages I listed show how "the world" is used, and include John 3:16-17, which says that Christ came to save "the world" rather than to condemn it.

And I also pointed out that Christ died for the ungodly--not the righteous. So "the world" must mean those that are not able to get themselves into the kingdom of heaven (which is everybody).

 

[flintstoned]

Ok, how do we know for whom Christ died? John 3:16 is one of the best, saying that God loved "the world". And the next verse (John 3:17) says Christ came not to condemn "the world", but that "the world" through him could ("might") be saved.

So Christ is not trying to condemn, but rather save "the world" and He died for "the world".

Would Jesus then say to anybody that is part of "the world" that He never knew them?

Maybe you will say that "the world" is only the part that He plans to save, and not the whole world. In which case I would say that He indeed came to condemn that part that He had no plan to save, for that appears to be the purpose of the contrast in the verse.

The word translated "world" in John 3:16 is the Greek word "kosmos." The word never means "every individual of mankind who ever lived." In fact, the word has at least seven different meanings in the scripture, depending on the context in which it's used. It can mean Gentiles (as opposed to Jews); it can mean the world of believers; it can mean the world of unbelievers; it can mean the physical creation; etc. If you would read the context around the verse, you would find that the context is "the world of believers" (whether they are Jews or Gentiles). Those are the people God loves. Those are the people for whom Jesus died. Jesus didn't come to condemn those people - He came to save them. But everyone else is already condemned, because they don't believe.

You'll say "but doesn't 'whosoever believes' mean that everybody has the chance to believe?" Nope. In John 10:11 Jesus says "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." Later on in verse 26, Jesus says to some unbelievers: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (He does not say that unbelievers are not of his sheep because they do not believe....he says the very opposite).

So Jesus says He came to die for the sheep, and then proceeds to say that only His sheep can believe. In other words, only the people for whom Jesus died will believe. Note that the reason that unbelievers don't believe is BECAUSE they are not His sheep. This passage explains who the world is in John 3:16, and it's clearly not everyone. Furthermore, the only people who can believe are the ones whom God has ordained to eternal life. "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48.

So, if you have been ordained to eternal life, that means that you will believe, you are one of God's sheep, God loves you, and He sent His Son to die for you so you wouldn't be condemned. If you have not been ordained to eternal life, that means you are not one of His sheep, you NEVER will believe and are already condemned.

 

[flintstoned]

Sounds good. Let me know what you think. Remember that when He told those in the OP that He never knew them, it wasn't combined with the other part--that He loved and gave His life for them. You have to read more than a single passage to get the whole message.

Jesus didn't give his life for those he didn't know. He gave his life for his sheep (which he knew).

The passages I listed show how "the world" is used, and include John 3:16-17, which says that Christ came to save "the world" rather than to condemn it.

Of course Christ's whole purpose was to save those given to him by the Father. He had no reason to condemn anyone. The non-elect were condemned already.

And I also pointed out that Christ died for the ungodly--not the righteous. So "the world" must mean those that are not able to get themselves into the kingdom of heaven (which is everybody).

Of course Christ didn't die for the righteous, because "there is none righteous, no not one". The elect are ungodly sinners just like the rest of the world, until they are brought to believe unto salvation through the grace of God.

 

[beloved57]

Sounds good. Let me know what you think. Remember that when He told those in the OP that He never knew them, it wasn't combined with the other part--that He loved and gave His life for them. You have to read more than a single passage to get the whole message.

The passages I listed show how "the world" is used, and include John 3:16-17, which says that Christ came to save "the world" rather than to condemn it.

And I also pointed out that Christ died for the ungodly--not the righteous. So "the world" must mean those that are not able to get themselves into the kingdom of heaven (which is everybody).

You have failed to provide scripture which stated that Christ told some that He loved and gave Himself for Eph 5:25 that He Never knew them!