I just hear this: Why was Satan told to partake of the ground?

[Ps82]

A man who thinks he's better than a man, but will still die like the man he is. The previous verse explains this.
Psalm 82:6 KJV — I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Not the topic in Ps. 82. You need to read the entire chapter. Yes, it is talking about gods and children of the Creator. I think you and I would agree that these children of God are men and angels which He created. The content of the audience listening to God the judge within Ps. 82 are angels and men.
Not unusual that God addresses angels and men in verse 6, I have said, You are gods (lightly referring to the angelic group); and all of you are children of the most High (seeming to refer to both created angels and humanity).

Now, the scene was a court room ... and usually someone is either presenting charges or giving a defense. In this case there is someone standing before God the Judge, who I believe was the Father LORD God, presenting his own self defense... by asking a list of questions which accuse God of being an unfair God while also making accusations regarding others.

Now, who was those others being accused by the one standing before God? I suggest mankind.
Now, who would you say is known to be man's accuser? ____________________

 

[Derf]

Not the topic in Ps. 82.

It is. We know this from what Jesus said when quoting from it:
John 10:34-35 KJV — Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The bolded parts connect the words "you are gods" to the Jews, because Jesus quoted the word of God that had been given to the Jews, their "Law".

You need to read the entire chapter.

You need to read what Jesus said about it.

Yes, it is talking about gods and children of the Creator.

No, it is talking about people who judge (or exercise the office and authority of God over people) unjustly.

I think you and I would agree that these children of God are men

Yes

and angels

No, not established.

which He created. The content of the audience listening to God the judge within Ps. 82 are angels and men.

Not unusual that God addresses angels and men in verse 6, I have said, You are gods (lightly referring to the angelic group); and all of you are children of the most High (seeming to refer to both created angels and humanity).

Now, the scene was a court room ... and usually someone is either presenting charges or giving a defense. In this case there is someone standing before God the Judge, who I believe was the Father LORD God, presenting his own self defense... by asking a list of questions which accuse God of being an unfair God while also making accusations regarding others.

You asserted these things, but Jesus proves you wrong.

Now, who was those others being accused by the one standing before God? I suggest mankind.
Now, who would you say is known to be man's accuser? ____________________

You've made up a story that doesn't fit with other scriptures, therefore your story needs to be altered rather than ignoring scriptures to allow your story to work.

 

[Ps82]

It is. We know this from what Jesus said when quoting from it:
John 10:34-35 KJV — Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The bolded parts connect the words "you are gods" to the Jews, because Jesus quoted the word of God that had been given to the Jews, their "Law".

I believe what Jesus said in this manner: Them is a plural pronoun. As in you are sons of God and then added you ALL are children of the most high. This would be ALL those sentient beings whom God created ... angels and men and women of the family of Adam. Jesus was speaking of ALL THOSE mentioned in Ps. 82.

You need to read what Jesus said about it.

No, it is talking about people who judge (or exercise the office and authority of God over people) unjustly.

No.
Ps 82 is talking about those being judged and those same who are about to be sentenced. AND, Jesus was referring to ALL OF THOSE mentioned in Ps. 82, which is Satan and his angelic followers who rebelled with him and mankind, who is present at the trial as well.

You need to read Ps. 82 after this fashion: It is a scene in a play with characters and dialogue. Scene is a court room. God is in the judgement seat. There is one before HIM pleading his case which included two aspects: a.) to accuse God of being an unfair judge. b.) and to accuse mankind of his pitiful existence and of guilt. God listens and then speaks. Wow does he speak! You before me will die just like men!

Men had already received their judgement of death ... but they didn't die right away. I don't think the accuser understood God's method. Men would live the rest of their lives partaking of the dust of the ground and then face death. This accuser surely was thinking they had gotten away with their crime and that God was being unfair.

Well, the message changes at this point. God Almighty Father speaks a word to someone else: Arise oh God, judge and inherit the nations.
Questions: Who is the only God you know who arose? Who is it that will be the judge of mankind? Who is to inherit all the nations for all things were made by him and for him? It is written in God's law of Ps. 82 of the judgement of angels and men and of the ONE who was to come.

John 10:35-38: If HE (God the Father as judge in Ps 82) called them gods unto whom the Word of God came, and scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of Him (the Messiah whom he sent), whom the Father hath sanctified (as mentioned in the OT law within Ps. 82), and sent (Him) into the world, 'Thou blasphemest; because I (Jesus Emmanuel have) said, I am The Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works (that I demonstrate): that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (I as The WORD, am the one - who is God and who is with God ... who is the God who has come to arise... as stated in the Law of Ps. 82.

Yes

No, not established.


You asserted these things, but Jesus proves you wrong.

Explain how you see Jesus proves me wrong about John 10: 34-35 referring to Ps. 82 please. A list perhaps. Maybe I'll see what you see.

You've made up a story that doesn't fit with other scriptures, therefore your story needs to be altered rather than ignoring scriptures to allow your story to work.

Show me even just some of the other scripture you have in mind to refute my thoughts so I can evaluate what they are saying as well.

 

[Ps82]

QUESTION: Are these next three references important to the topic of this thread (Why was Satan told to partake of the ground for the rest of his Life)? ANSWER: Yes.

a.) gods,
b.) children of the Most High,
c.) sons of God

My takes are these:
gods refers specifically to angelic beings who are sentient creatures being super-natural in bodily form and sexless in nature.
Children of the Most High God is a general reference to both the created angels and humanity (male/female) all having different functions, abilities and purposes.
sons of God refers specifically to the children of God who are sons of Adam.

In Psalm 82 and Genesis 6 God reveals things which opened my eyes to the truth. 1.) who these groups are and their connection regarding life and death. It led to my discovering there is a connection of life and death between men and angels!

Ps 82:6 mentions two of the group-references:
a.) I have said, Ye are gods (angels); and ALL of you (both created angels and humans) are children of the most High.
b.) This demonstrates there were two groups present at the judgement seat of God Almighty that day.

Ps 82:7 But YOU shall die like men ...
a.) QUESTION: Who is it that is not a human but will like like men (humanity) ? ANSWER: Angels ... unless anyone can name another sentient created being.
b.) An angel (or a group of angels are being sentenced for wrong doing) and at least one is standing before his judge - God Almighty.

Genesis 6:1,2,4 paraphrased states:
a.) The sons of God (specifically men) saw the daughters of men that they were were fair, and they took wives of all they chose. ...and they (the daughters) bare children unto them (the sons), the same (the children of sons and daughters of God) became mighty men ... men of renown.
b.) QUESTIONS: Were angels created with the ability to reproduce? ANSWER: No.
c.) Or were sons (male humans) of God created to reproduce with their wives while being commanded to leave their own mothers and fathers in order to take a wife and they together were to cleave and become one? Their children were MEN ... men of renown ... not some sort of half-bred or angelic monsters.
d.) My opinions regarding Genes 6 is that the human sons of God left their first estate and took wives from among their counter parts, which were born unto Adam and Eve after they were expelled from the Garden. These sons of God did what they were created for. I won't go into why God was upset ... that's another topic.
e. But this is how I figured out that the sons of God referred to humans only.

QUESTION: Now, how does all this apply to Genesis 3 regarding the dust of the ground? ANSWER: Well, in Gen. 3 God Almighty was speaking to angelic Satan and to mankind (male female) pronouncing consequences to come regarding their disobedience and rebellion. Read Gen. 3:13-17. There were a number of changes to come for Woman due to her part in sin ... but the biggie was that Satan and mankind (Adam) were basically given the same command.

God commanded Satan to eat/to partake of the dust all the days of his life. God said again unto Adam - thou eat of it (the ground) all the days of thy life. At that point God cursed the ground or the elements in this world from which man's body was formed. This brought mortal death unto humanity - even if not instantaneously.

QUESTION: What is ground and what is dust?
ANSWERS:
a.) Ground is the reference to the elements from which man's body was formed. Elements which had a measure of life within them in the beginning.
b.) Dust is the opposite. It is a reference to those same elements but which have no life left in them. IOW a dead body. A body which has returned to dust before it was ground.

The spirit of humanity was to be allowed to partake of that living body all the days of his life - until his body turned to dust which is man's first death.
Satan was told he could partake of that dead body for the rest of his life! Same as commanded to partake of that dead body for all his life.
Is it any wonder that Satan felt he had a right to have the dead body of Moses and that he argued with an angel of the LORD over possessing it. Moses had sinned and Satan was allowed to eat of /partake of the dust of a sinful human!!!

See, the dust was the common thread which dealt with the ultimate eternal death of mankind and of Satan along with his rebellious hoard. The eternally lost go to the Lake of Fire which is the second death for lost humanity and the first death for lost angels.

But for God and HIS plan of salvation. Our risen Lord and Savior was The WAY to circumcise saved humanity from the curse upon the lifeless ground ... and HIS spirit in us holds us unto things are fully completed regarding our being literally alive appearing bodily in HIS kingdom. Our Lord is the additional measure of life we need to live eternally. Our Lord is the truth... He is only the way and the life. Follow HIM.

 

[Derf]

I believe what Jesus said in this manner: Them is a plural pronoun. As in you are sons of God and then added you ALL are children of the most high. This would be ALL those sentient beings whom God created ... angels and men and women of the family of Adam. Jesus was speaking of ALL THOSE mentioned in Ps. 82.


No.
Ps 82 is talking about those being judged and those same who are about to be sentenced. AND, Jesus was referring to ALL OF THOSE mentioned in Ps. 82, which is Satan and his angelic followers who rebelled with him and mankind, who is present at the trial as well.

You need to read Ps. 82 after this fashion: It is a scene in a play with characters and dialogue. Scene is a court room. God is in the judgement seat. There is one before HIM pleading his case which included two aspects: a.) to accuse God of being an unfair judge. b.) and to accuse mankind of his pitiful existence and of guilt. God listens and then speaks. Wow does he speak! You before me will die just like men!

Men had already received their judgement of death ... but they didn't die right away. I don't think the accuser understood God's method. Men would live the rest of their lives partaking of the dust of the ground and then face death. This accuser surely was thinking they had gotten away with their crime and that God was being unfair.

Well, the message changes at this point. God Almighty Father speaks a word to someone else: Arise oh God, judge and inherit the nations.
Questions: Who is the only God you know who arose? Who is it that will be the judge of mankind? Who is to inherit all the nations for all things were made by him and for him? It is written in God's law of Ps. 82 of the judgement of angels and men and of the ONE who was to come.

John 10:35-38: If HE (God the Father as judge in Ps 82) called them gods unto whom the Word of God came, and scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of Him (the Messiah whom he sent), whom the Father hath sanctified (as mentioned in the OT law within Ps. 82), and sent (Him) into the world, 'Thou blasphemest; because I (Jesus Emmanuel have) said, I am The Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works (that I demonstrate): that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (I as The WORD, am the one - who is God and who is with God ... who is the God who has come to arise... as stated in the Law of Ps. 82.


Explain how you see Jesus proves me wrong about John 10: 34-35 referring to Ps. 82 please. A list perhaps. Maybe I'll see what you see.


Show me even just some of the other scripture you have in mind to refute my thoughts so I can evaluate what they are saying as well.

I think I already did what you are asking for. In John 10 Jesus speaking to the the leader of the Jews, chastising them for how they led the people. You can see this in the earlier part of the chapter where Jesus talks about thieves and hirelings and those that don't care for the sheep. This relates directly back to Ps 82, because it also chastises leaders of the people for not leading in a righteous way ("[don't] judge unjustly", "[don't] accept the persons of the wicked", "do justice").
[Psa 82:2 KJV] How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
[Psa 82:3 KJV] Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
[Psa 82:4 KJV] Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.

In the latter part of the chapter (admittedly some time passes between the two parts) The Jews ask Jesus to tell them clearly if He's the Christ, and when He answers, He also says that He is one with the Father, which the Jews take to be blasphemy, since He equates Himself with the Father ([Jhn 10:33 KJV] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.). In answer, Jesus uses Ps 82 to show that it should not be that big of a deal for Him to call Himself God, since God called the leaders of the people gods in Ps 82.
[Jhn 10:34 KJV] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[Jhn 10:35 KJV] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken
Note that vs 34 is a direct quote from Ps 82:6, and vs 35 is Jesus' interpretation of it:
1. that God called some group "gods"
2. that group was the one to "whom the word of God came", making it the children of Israel
3. It was the ancestors of the people Jesus was addressing who received the "word of God", since in vs 34 He said "written in YOUR law"
4. They were responsible for knowing and understanding the law ("the word of God")

Now if Jesus applied "I said, Ye are gods" to the ancestors of the ones he was speaking to, and they were sons (descendants) of those ancestors, then Jesus being the Son of God (He called God "Father" and said that the Father and He were one) should not be that big of a stretch for them--they, too, were sons of sons of God, since they were descendants of sons of God, whom God called "gods".

So it was a slap in the face of those who were about to stone Jesus, but it also tells us what was being described in Ps 82, that it wasn't some council of angels and such that was being addressed when God said "I said, Ye are gods."

Of course, when God refers back to what He previously said ("I said" in vs Ps 82:6), we should look for the place where He is quoting from, if we can find it. Fortunately, it isn't far away. In Ps 82:1, God calls those that He is addressing "gods", while He is standing in the congregation of the "mighty" (or of "God"). Here's what Strongs says about the word translated "congregation":
-------
עֵדָה ʻêdâh, ay-daw'; feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically, a concourse, or generally, a family or crowd):—assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm.
-------
All of those possible meanings would fit with the Ps 82 usage, but one of them stands out to me--"family"
Go back to [Psa 82:6 KJV] I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
There are two parts of what God refers back to what He said before: "I said..." 1 "ye are gods" and 2 "all of you [are] children of the most High". Where did God say that second part? Look back at vs 1:
[Psa 82:1 KJV] [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
He is described as standing in the "congregation of God ("El", or the mighty in KJV)". If we use the word "family" for "congregation", we have the two parts that God (loosely) quoted Himself: 1. that they are gods and 2. that they are in the family of God, which makes them children of the most High ("El Yon" in vs 6).

Which makes sense with what Jesus said in John 10, quoting Ps 82, but makes no sense at all if you try to turn it into some assembly of angels.

 

[Ps82]

Yes, Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders in his day and likely priests as well.

In Ps 82 when it says, "You will die like one of the princes," it is referring to leaders among God's people Israel. IOW, men with authority. Such as: The chosen leaders of the tribes of Israel, the judges, the patriarchs of the tribes and the priestly family as well would be considered princes, because God is the king over all and they are under him. You can find references in the OT using the word prince to describe these sorts of people.

In Ps 82 God Almighty was telling Satan, a disobedient rebellious angelic soul, that he was no better than those men ... HE, being God, was informing Satan that HE is a fair judge because his judgement was that Satan and his angels would receive the same consequence for sin as men.

That consequence for both was to be The Lake of Fire ... aka the second death formed for humanity. It will be Satan's first form of death.

Of course it would be the God who arose that would inherit the nations and judge. It would not be Satan who right now still has influence within the world and is still trying to steal our Lord's Kingdom.

I am busy... can write more. I apologize that I have not read you entire post above. I am interested in your ideas and will return to read more.

 

[Ps82]

Hello Derf,
I am trying to avoid making my posts too long. I can go there easily. Let me just discuss this point.

You have listed John 10 to show Jesus was speaking to the the leaders of the Jews, chastising them for how they led the people.
I've already agreed to these points - Jesus is talking with the Jewish leaders.
I certainly agree that John 10 points back a Ps. 82.
I even agree that in Ps 82:2 God is condemning men of authority.
That's good.

How ever add 82:1 and you will see a setting unfold and hear characters speaking like a scene in a play.
Ps.82:1 KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
[Psa 82:2 KJV] How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
[Psa 82:3 KJV] Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
[Psa 82:4 KJV] Deliver the poor and needy: rid [them] out of the hand of the wicked.

Grammar pointers:
One must begin to answer a few questions regarding appositives for nouns and antecedents for pronouns. These are meant to clarify the identity of an original noun and pronoun. (Mr. Jones, the principal, (an appositive) is busy. He (Mr. Jones) (an antecedent) will be available soon.

Content and characters:
Now, who is standing before a congregation of listeners? ANSWER: God.

Who makes up part of that congregation? ANSWER: mighty gods.

What is the antecedent of the pronoun "he"? ANSWER: God ... GOD is the one judging at this event.

Who would most Christians say were "the mighty gods" HE is judging? ANSWER: The angels.


Setting:
God is standing in a heavenly court room in front of a crowd and is considering the fates of these rebellious angels.

I'm stopping here but you might like to begin reading Ps.82:2 ... as if a lawyer or the accused one has stood up to present a defense. He begins with a question: HOW LONG WILL YE JUDGE UNJUSTLY ...?


Within the context find the antecedent for the pronoun YE.

 

[Ps82]

...

In the latter part of the chapter (admittedly some time passes between the two parts) The Jews ask Jesus to tell them clearly if He's the Christ, and when He answers, He also says that He is one with the Father, which the Jews take to be blasphemy, since He equates Himself with the Father ([Jhn 10:33 KJV] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.). In answer, Jesus uses Ps 82 to show that it should not be that big of a deal for Him to call Himself God, since God called the leaders of the people gods in Ps 82.
[Jhn 10:34 KJV] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
[Jhn 10:35 KJV] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken
Note that vs 34 is a direct quote from Ps 82:6, and vs 35 is Jesus' interpretation of it:
1. that God called some group "gods"
2. that group was the one to "whom the word of God came", making it the children of Israel
3. It was the ancestors of the people Jesus was addressing who received the "word of God", since in vs 34 He said "written in YOUR law"
4. They were responsible for knowing and understanding the law ("the word of God")

Now if Jesus applied "I said, Ye are gods" to the ancestors of the ones he was speaking to, and they were sons (descendants) of those ancestors, then Jesus being the Son of God (He called God "Father" and said that the Father and He were one) should not be that big of a stretch for them--they, too, were sons of sons of God, since they were descendants of sons of God, whom God called "gods".

So it was a slap in the face of those who were about to stone Jesus, but it also tells us what was being described in Ps 82, that it wasn't some council of angels and such that was being addressed when God said "I said, Ye are gods."

Third reply to you regarding John 10. Thanks for your thorough response above of John 10.

John 10 is not talking about the Jewish leaders judging. Throughout John 10 these men are questioning Jesus about who he is. In verses 1-9 Jesus first talks about there being A Door and how certain sheep (believers) who endureth follow their shepherd (Jesus - the God who was commanded to arise and inherit the nations of peoples). Christ claims to be both That Door and Their shepherd. Jesus does not necessarily talk about Ps. 82 at this point but another scriptural teaching about who he is as the Savior who saves the sheep.

Ps. 82 While in Ps. 82 it is God Almighty who is standing in front of a congregation of the mighty and judging among the gods.

Back to John 10:25-32: Jesus talks about the works/the miracles he has performed which should have proved to those clueless experts that he is God. Now, this takes us to his mention of Ps. 82.

QUESTION: If God is standing and judging before the gods in Ps. 82 ... and He turns and says Arise O God ... judge ... inherit, to whom was God Almighty speaking?
ANSWER: Sure seems like God is taking to God ... IOW, Himself. God gives himself the command to arise, judge, and inherit. Is it any wonder that Timothy taught: I Tim. 2:5 "For there is ONE God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." I found too many scriptures to mention, which show how Jesus and his apostles either talked about His judging or forgiving sins. Here are two - I Corin. 6:9-10 and Hebrews10:17

HE turns and speaks to someone and commands "Arise O God ... judge the earth ... You shall inherit all nations. Jesus was informing these blind leaders of John 10 how he was The God who received the order to arise and inherit people from all nations. Jesus was God Almighty and the God who arose. Philippians 2:6 KJV (Jesus) who, being in the form (bodily image) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
IOW, Jesus was God and he gave the command to himself to be the Savior.

Isaiah 43:11 makes it clear who was to be the Savior: "I (God Almighty) even I, am the LORD; beside ME (as God the Spirit plus the image of the Father named LORD) there is no Savior."
IOW, Jesus as our Savior was God Almighty appearing in the likeness of the presence of God named LORD Father ...

It was God the Father who was also to be the Savior who stood before the gods of Ps. 82 and spoke to them. Now, this is important.
QUESTIONS:
1.) Who was the one standing in front of God Almighty questioning Him? Who was it that asked, "How long will YOU judgeth unjustly, and accept the persons (people) of the wicked?"
2.) Who were the wicked people? Why were they wicked?

If you would like to guess, Derf, read verses 3-5 where there is a description of these persons (people).

 

[Ps82]

Of course, when God refers back to what He previously said ("I said" in vs Ps 82:6), we should look for the place where He is quoting from, if we can find it. Fortunately, it isn't far away. In Ps 82:1, God calls those that He is addressing "gods", while He is standing in the congregation of the "mighty" (or of "God"). Here's what Strongs says about the word translated "congregation":
-------
עֵדָה ʻêdâh, ay-daw'; feminine of H5707 in the original sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (specifically, a concourse, or generally, a family or crowd):—assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm.
-------
All of those possible meanings would fit with the Ps 82 usage, but one of them stands out to me--"family"
Go back to [Psa 82:6 KJV] I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
There are two parts of what God refers back to what He said before: "I said..." 1 "ye are gods" and 2 "all of you [are] children of the most High". Where did God say that second part? Look back at vs 1:
[Psa 82:1 KJV] [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
He is described as standing in the "congregation of God ("El", or the mighty in KJV)". If we use the word "family" for "congregation", we have the two parts that God (loosely) quoted Himself: 1. that they are gods and 2. that they are in the family of God, which makes them children of the most High ("El Yon" in vs 6).

Which makes sense with what Jesus said in John 10, quoting Ps 82, but makes no sense at all if you try to turn it into some assembly of angels.

Fourth reply, Derf . this time regarding this last point you made: Ps. 82 mentions the congregation and you surmise it to be like a family.

Yes, I so agree. God was talking to his children as stated in verse 6. I (God Almighty) have said, Ye are gods; and ALL OF YOU" are CHILDREN of the most high."

QUESTIONS:
1.) Who are the ones being addressed by God as 'gods'? My answer: Angelic beings who were present are the gods.
2.) Hmmm ... who are the 'all of you' who also seem to have been present? My answer: 'The persons mentioned', who are being accused of all sorts of things.

At the beginning God Almighty is especially was addressing the ones He called gods/angels and especially the one who is speaking to Him.
The one speaking to God is accusing the persons of lots of wrong doings and of being blind and helpless... etc.

Therefore, I say the congregation which is in trouble is made up of both angels and persons ... all of whom God created and consider his children, but both of which has done things deserving of judgment.

Well, in verse 7 God Almighty pronounces the sentence ... for angels and men. My thought: they ultimately die just alike, together, in the Lake of Fire. Because God is a fair judge after all.

QUESTIONS:
1.) Who do you think is standing in front of God Almighty speaking in defense of himself and his followers?
2.) Who is the one accusing mankind/persons of being the trouble makers?
3.) Why did he think God was not being unfair to him and not fair to them?
4.) Who is the God who arises to judge and inherit?

If this is interesting to you Derf ... let me know and I'll even give you my answer to these three.

 

[Derf]

Fourth reply, Derf .

Just so you know, I don't always have time to peruse the different threads I've contributed to, so I might not see a response that doesn't directly address me by either quoting one of my posts or by using the "@" sign followed by my name (no spaces).

this time regarding this last point you made: Ps. 82 mentions the congregation and you surmise it to be like a family.

Yes, I so agree. God was talking to his children as stated in verse 6. I (God Almighty) have said, Ye are gods; and ALL OF YOU" are CHILDREN of the most high."

QUESTIONS:
1.) Who are the ones being addressed by God as 'gods'? My answer: Angelic beings who were present are the gods.

I know that's your answer, because you've made it obvious. The problem is that it doesn't comport with John 10.

2.) Hmmm ... who are the 'all of you' who also seem to have been present? My answer: 'The persons mentioned', who are being accused of all sorts of things.

I agree it is the persons being accused of injustice.

At the beginning God Almighty is especially was addressing the ones He called gods/angels

Yes.

and especially the one who is speaking to Him.

I don't see such a person represented in the text.

The one speaking to God is accusing the persons of lots of wrong doings and of being blind and helpless... etc.

Again, I don't see that anywhere.

Therefore, I say the congregation which is in trouble is made up of both angels and persons ... all of whom God created and consider his children, but both of which has done things deserving of judgment.

Well, in verse 7 God Almighty pronounces the sentence ... for angels and men. My thought: they ultimately die just alike, together, in the Lake of Fire. Because God is a fair judge after all.

But that's not how "men" die. Men die in all kinds of ways. The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so the text would have to read "You will die like angels".
[Mat 25:41 KJV] Then shall he say also unto them (humans) on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

QUESTIONS:
1.) Who do you think is standing in front of God Almighty speaking in defense of himself and his followers?

I don't see that person in the text.

2.) Who is the one accusing mankind/persons of being the trouble makers?

Or "who is accusing the leaders of the Jews?" Seems like a better question.

3.) Why did he think God was not being unfair to him and not fair to them?

Is there where you think the accused is speaking? It looks more like God is asking that question of the accused people.

4.) Who is the God who arises to judge and inherit?

Probably Jesus. And the first He will judge will be the bad shepherds of His people.

If this is interesting to you Derf ... let me know and I'll even give you my answer to these three.

Haven't you already done that?

 

[Ps82]

@Derf I'm like you in a way. I struggle at times finding posts to see if anyone has responded to me. I did not even know why people were putting @ in their posts. Thanks for telling me.

I also see that we agree on some things about Psalm... but not all when it comes to John 10. That's okay. I do believe that Jesus was scolding the religious leaders for not understanding who he was ...but just referring to Ps. 82 with his quote was saying: Look, I'm the God of Psalm 82 ... and I'm the God who received the command to Arise (from the dead) and inherit and judge. I am God Creator and Savior.

Regarding the one standing in front of God Almighty accusing humanity is Satan. He is the other created sentient being at this trial who is in trouble. He and his hoard of angels and all humanity due to Adam's sin. He is the accuser of mankind and that is exactly what he is doing at this trial as he questions God's fairness to him versus HIS putting up with humanity. Everything he lists about humanity's failing is true ... even the point about mankind was the cause of the whole world being out of sort.

I mis-worded this question in previous post: Why did he (the one in front of God, Satan) think God was being unfair to him (Satan) while rescuing them (humanity)?
My answer: One deduction I might make is that man didn't die as God had said. Another would be based on what all he said about humanity while condemning and accusing them. He obviously felt God seemed to be unfairly putting up with humanity and was actually helping them... rescuing them at times ... and so forth.

Yes, Jesus would come as God who would rise and judge. Satan was representing himself at this trial ... There was to be one more consequence for humanity for their sins. Lost souls would face a second death and enter the Lake of Fire along with Satan. Also, yes, God was to send himself to come on a mission to die ... and so forth.

BTW LOL, you are correct I had already revealed what I thought ... Guess I just could wait. I enjoyed our conversation. Thank you

 

[Ps82]

But that's not how "men" die. Men die in all kinds of ways. The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, so the text would have to read "You will die like angels".
[Mat 25:41 KJV] Then shall he say also unto them (humans) on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

I don't see that person in the text.

@Derf ... I have one last comment to make and it is important. Above you have hit upon a major point for how the one standing before God Almighty cannot be a man of any era!

In verse 6 and 7 God makes things clear. I'll be singling out relevant information to make my point.
6a I (God Almighty) have said, "Ye (who is on trial this day) are gods (angels) ... 7 But ye (angels) shall die like men ...

Of course, it is logical that men die like men just as they were destined by God. We are mortals and suffer physical death. God would not have needed to say, "Men, or you wicked judges will die like men." That is a given.

QUESTION: So, who is it that is not a man but will die like one anyway???
ANSWER: Angels, who may have been immortal in some ways, perhaps on this judgement day got the shock of their lives to find out that their state of life versus death could be changed or was not exactly what they had thought. At this trial angels were being sentenced to die like men.

That death, which had been prepared for angels is called the Lake of Fire.

But at mankind's fall in Genesis 3, God told both Satan and Adam that they must partake of the dust of the ground for the rest of their lives! He then immediately cursed the elements of the ground he had just cursed ...

This affixed mankind and Satan to the same form of death at the end of all things. Satan may have thought he and his angels could not be harmed by God but he found out in Ps. 82 that he was going to die like humanity after all. Surprise!

Or "who is accusing the leaders of the Jews?" Seems like a better question.

Is there where you think the accused is speaking? It looks more like God is asking that question of the accused people.

Probably Jesus. And the first He will judge will be the bad shepherds of His people.

Haven't you already done that?

Verse 1 says that God is judging that day. That is clear. There is only ONE God ... you can think of him as God the Spirit or God the Father or God the Promised Son or even God the WORD ... they all are God. I like to think of God as the Father and the judge in this script.

He is not accusing the leaders of the Jews ... but it is Satan, the accuser of mankind, who is on trial. He is the one who is not a man but will die like one. Both together in the Lake of Fire.

Satan asks God a question, " How long will ye (God) judge unjustly and accept the persons (people) of the wicked?

Satan continues to question why God is good to them (the wicked people)... then he says:, " They (the wicked people) know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course."

QUESTION: Who does Satan suggest caused the foundations of the earth to be out of course?
ANSWER: Mankind and of course he is correct. Man disobeyed God and the elements of creation (ground) was cursed and the whole foundations of the earth and man's bodies are wearing out like old garments.

Satan's whole defense at this trial was to accuse God of being unfair and mankind of being the problem.

 

[Derf]

@Derf ... I have one last comment to make and it is important. Above you have hit upon a major point for how the one standing before God Almighty cannot be a man of any era!

In verse 6 and 7 God makes things clear. I'll be singling out relevant information to make my point.
6a I (God Almighty) have said, "Ye (who is on trial this day) are gods (angels) ... 7 But ye (angels) shall die like men ...

Of course, it is logical that men die like men just as they were destined by God. We are mortals and suffer physical death. God would not have needed to say, "Men, or you wicked judges will die like men." That is a given.

QUESTION: So, who is it that is not a man but will die like one anyway???
ANSWER: Angels, who may have been immortal in some ways, perhaps on this judgement day got the shock of their lives to find out that their state of life versus death could be changed or was not exactly what they had thought. At this trial angels were being sentenced to die like men.

That death, which had been prepared for angels is called the Lake of Fire.

But at mankind's fall in Genesis 3, God told both Satan and Adam that they must partake of the dust of the ground for the rest of their lives! He then immediately cursed the elements of the ground he had just cursed ...

This affixed mankind and Satan to the same form of death at the end of all things. Satan may have thought he and his angels could not be harmed by God but he found out in Ps. 82 that he was going to die like humanity after all. Surprise!

Verse 1 says that God is judging that day. That is clear. There is only ONE God ... you can think of him as God the Spirit or God the Father or God the Promised Son or even God the WORD ... they all are God. I like to think of God as the Father and the judge in this script.

He is not accusing the leaders of the Jews ... but it is Satan, the accuser of mankind, who is on trial. He is the one who is not a man but will die like one. Both together in the Lake of Fire.

Satan asks God a question, " How long will ye (God) judge unjustly and accept the persons (people) of the wicked?

Satan continues to question why God is good to them (the wicked people)... then he says:, " They (the wicked people) know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course."

QUESTION: Who does Satan suggest caused the foundations of the earth to be out of course?
ANSWER: Mankind and of course he is correct. Man disobeyed God and the elements of creation (ground) was cursed and the whole foundations of the earth and man's bodies are wearing out like old garments.

Satan's whole defense at this trial was to accuse God of being unfair and mankind of being the problem.

I'm certain you are reading it wrong. God is the one speaking in both vs 1 and 2. You keep trying to insert some other accuser, but it isn't needed to understand the passage. And inserting one where it isnt needed makes you go off into weird speculations about what the passage means. Rather, it makes more sense that the passage is written to men, not to angels, and the men need to start judging justly.

 

[Ps82]

I'm certain you are reading it wrong. God is the one speaking in both vs 1 and 2. You keep trying to insert some other accuser, but it isn't needed to understand the passage. And inserting one where it isnt needed makes you go off into weird speculations about what the passage means. Rather, it makes more sense that the passage is written to men, not to angels, and the men need to start judging justly.

Okay. You know how it goes ... I'm pretty sure I'm correct; so, we will just have to disagree. Thanks for taking a look. I'm sure you will see me around discussing this topic again somewhere. Maybe we'll discuss other things.

 

[Ps82]

This post will be for anyone who may be checking in on this topic Regarding why Satan was told to partake of dust ... and how Psalm 82 played into the conversation. Derf and I never came together regarding verse 1 and 2. He believes what many people do that the one mentioned in those two verses is God. He thinks God asks the first question: How long will you judge unjustly?

Now, I'm not wanting to offend Derf. He is not the only one who believes what he does. Just about everyone I know had heard this interpretation from others. In fact, I'm the only one I know of who thinks the way I do!

BUT what is it I believe?
1.) verse one is like a title or a topic sentence which describes the scene or setting of the event about to take place. (God is standing as the judge. He is judging the "gods."
2.) verse two is not God speaking at all. It is Satan in the courtroom who is being judged. As one among the "gods," he is pleading his case before his judge who is God.

So far I see three things: What might be called a title for the event, the courtroom setting, and two of the characters in the scene: God who judgeth and another who is from among the "gods."

Now, I've always considered the noun "gods" was applied to angelic beings. So, this is what caused me to think that an angel was standing before Judge God. It is the angel who speaks first and says: How long will you judge unjustly ... The antecedent to the pronoun "you" would be God.

QUESTION: What? Who would accuse God of being an unjust judge? I was curious, "and of doing what?'

Watch: How long will YOU/GOD judge unjustly ... and accept the people of the wicked; defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy; rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

I know the sentence ends in a period. I guess I disagree with some of the punctuation in the KJV text. I think the above is an on-going question. How long will you/God judge unjustly and accept the people of the wicked; defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy; and rid them out of the hand of the wicked?

Next I asked myself, "If God is doing all these good things (accepting, defending, doing justly, delivering them from, and ridding them out of the hand of the wicked), for these clueless wicked and needy people, then would HE not be acting out the role of a good judge?

QUESTION: So who might even dare to accuse God of being unjust ... and watch next - even blame people of being the cause of the earth being out of course etc.? MY ANSWER: Satan.

3.) verse 5 mentions "these persons/people": They (the people) know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Now, anyone reading this verse probably knows who it was that caused the earth to be out of course. MY THOUGHTS: Mankind/ADAM and it affected all of his decedents who began to reproduce.

The ONE from among the "gods" is the accuser of God and mankind. It is Satan, the god/angelic being, who is pleading his case before God. Satan rightly accused man for his role in that sin ... but calmed God was being too kind to them for accepting fallen humanity ... while bringing him to trial.

Now I will paraphrase to try to keep this short:
How does all this related to Genesis 3 and the partaking of the dust of the ground.
Gen. 3:14 Angels had some sort of immortality when they were created ... so God told Satan dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
I have a theory that the definition of dust is: Elements of creation without the addition of life in it. Satan was given permission to partake of it for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Does that mean one day Satan will lose his life after all????

Gen. 3:17 God then told Adam - Cursed is the ground for THY SAKE. You shall eat of it all the days of thy life.
I have a definition for ground. Certain elements in the earth which were used to form Adam a body, which also was given a measure of life in it. One day the life leaves that body and there is only dust left (life-less ground).

QUESTION: Now who had been given the right to partake of the dust for as long as he lived? ANSWER: Satan!!! Satan could possess the bodies of humanity which had died ... unless there were people who had our Savior circumcise that lifeless flesh away from our spiritual essence.

Now, when you study about the second death you find that Satan goes into the Lake of Fire and that seems to be his first form of death. Yet, lost mankind goes into that Lake of Fire and that is consider their second death. IOW, Satan and mankind will experience the same final death together. So goes the cursed dust of the ground ... so goes Satan and lost people.

Now, in Psalm 82:7 God speaks up and makes this clear: "But ye (Satan) shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes (men who led the tribes and the nation of Israel who sinned).

Psalm 82 is the trial where Satan learned of his sentence - to death. Gen. 3 is where we learned the connection and the final judgement of lost humanity - to death by dust!

Is it any wonder that Satan argued with the Lord for the possession of the dead body of Moses - his dust? He felt he had a right to take it with him to the Lake of Fire for Moses had sinned. My thought: I'll bet he whispered - "That's not being just!" But our Lord paid our price and has been given the authority to forgive sins and raise our bodies. Praise God our Creator and Savior. Amen.

 

[Clete]

This post will be for anyone who may be checking in on this topic Regarding why Satan was told to partake of dust ... and how Psalm 82 played into the conversation. Derf and I never came together regarding verse 1 and 2. He believes what many people do that the one mentioned in those two verses is God. He thinks God asks the first question: How long will you judge unjustly?

Now, I'm not wanting to offend Derf. He is not the only one who believes what he does. Just about everyone I know had heard this interpretation from others. In fact, I'm the only one I know of who thinks the way I do!

BUT what is it I believe?
1.) verse one is like a title or a topic sentence which describes the scene or setting of the event about to take place. (God is standing as the judge. He is judging the "gods."
2.) verse two is not God speaking at all. It is Satan in the courtroom who is being judged. As one among the "gods," he is pleading his case before his judge who is God.

So far I see three things: What might be called a title for the event, the courtroom setting, and two of the characters in the scene: God who judgeth and another who is from among the "gods."

Now, I've always considered the noun "gods" was applied to angelic beings. So, this is what caused me to think that an angel was standing before Judge God. It is the angel who speaks first and says: How long will you judge unjustly ... The antecedent to the pronoun "you" would be God.

QUESTION: What? Who would accuse God of being an unjust judge? I was curious, "and of doing what?'

Watch: How long will YOU/GOD judge unjustly ... and accept the people of the wicked; defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy; rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

I know the sentence ends in a period. I guess I disagree with some of the punctuation in the KJV text. I think the above is an on-going question. How long will you/God judge unjustly and accept the people of the wicked; defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy; deliver the poor and needy; and rid them out of the hand of the wicked?

Next I asked myself, "If God is doing all these good things (accepting, defending, doing justly, delivering them from, and ridding them out of the hand of the wicked), for these clueless wicked and needy people, then would HE not be acting out the role of a good judge?

QUESTION: So who might even dare to accuse God of being unjust ... and watch next - even blame people of being the cause of the earth being out of course etc.? MY ANSWER: Satan.

3.) verse 5 mentions "these persons/people": They (the people) know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

Now, anyone reading this verse probably knows who it was that caused the earth to be out of course. MY THOUGHTS: Mankind/ADAM and it affected all of his decedents who began to reproduce.

The ONE from among the "gods" is the accuser of God and mankind. It is Satan, the god/angelic being, who is pleading his case before God. Satan rightly accused man for his role in that sin ... but calmed God was being too kind to them for accepting fallen humanity ... while bringing him to trial.

Now I will paraphrase to try to keep this short:
How does all this related to Genesis 3 and the partaking of the dust of the ground.
Gen. 3:14 Angels had some sort of immortality when they were created ... so God told Satan dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
I have a theory that the definition of dust is: Elements of creation without the addition of life in it. Satan was given permission to partake of it for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Does that mean one day Satan will lose his life after all????

Gen. 3:17 God then told Adam - Cursed is the ground for THY SAKE. You shall eat of it all the days of thy life.
I have a definition for ground. Certain elements in the earth which were used to form Adam a body, which also was given a measure of life in it. One day the life leaves that body and there is only dust left (life-less ground).

QUESTION: Now who had been given the right to partake of the dust for as long as he lived? ANSWER: Satan!!! Satan could possess the bodies of humanity which had died ... unless there were people who had our Savior circumcise that lifeless flesh away from our spiritual essence.

Now, when you study about the second death you find that Satan goes into the Lake of Fire and that seems to be his first form of death. Yet, lost mankind goes into that Lake of Fire and that is consider their second death. IOW, Satan and mankind will experience the same final death together. So goes the cursed dust of the ground ... so goes Satan and lost people.

Now, in Psalm 82:7 God speaks up and makes this clear: "But ye (Satan) shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes (men who led the tribes and the nation of Israel who sinned).

Psalm 82 is the trial where Satan learned of his sentence - to death. Gen. 3 is where we learned the connection and the final judgement of lost humanity - to death by dust!

Is it any wonder that Satan argued with the Lord for the possession of the dead body of Moses - his dust? He felt he had a right to take it with him to the Lake of Fire for Moses had sinned. My thought: I'll bet he whispered - "That's not being just!" But our Lord paid our price and has been given the authority to forgive sins and raise our bodies. Praise God our Creator and Savior. Amen.

So, I had most of a really long version of the following post written up in my usual format, where I respond to each segment of the post as it comes along, but it was really getting to be a bit much, even for me, so I ran it through GPT and had it condense my post into what I've posted below. It's all the same arguments, virtually verbatim, as what I had already written, just in a more readable and substantially shorter format....



So, first I want to say that I'm responding to this because I appreciate the effort to engage with the text of Scripture. It is clear you are at least trying to harmonize multiple passages and that's not only commendable, but it happens to be far more than most here on TOL are willing to even attempt. However, your interpretation of Psalm 82 and its connection to Genesis 3 raises several very serious problems that cannot be ignored and my intent here is to deal with those issues based on the text of scripture itself....


Psalm 82:1 says, “God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.” The next verse continues, “How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked?” (Psalm 82:2, NKJV). There is no shift in speaker between these verses. The subject of verse 1 is God, and the words in verse 2 are a continuation of His judgment. The syntax, structure, and plain reading all confirm that it is God speaking to the unjust rulers referred to as “gods.” To insert Satan as the speaker in verse 2 requires a complete break from the flow of the text with NO grammatical or contextual justification.

Further, the idea that Satan is accusing God of being unjust (pleading for justice on behalf of the oppressed) is entirely foreign to the biblical portrayal of Satan. In Scripture, Satan is not a defender of righteousness, but is described rather as “the accuser of our brethren” (Revelation 12:10), and in Job and Zechariah, he accuses men, not God. There is no biblical precedent for Satan ever suggesting that God is being too merciful.

You also equate the phrase “dust you shall eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14) with permission for Satan to possess or consume dead human bodies. That interpretation has no textual basis, whatsoever. The idea of eating dust is a Hebrew idiom for humiliation. Isaiah 65:25 uses the same imagery: “The serpent’s food shall be dust.” Micah 7:17 speaks of enemies licking the dust. These are pictures of defeat and disgrace, not literal consumption of dirt, much less human corpses. Nothing in Scripture supports the idea that Satan has the right to inhabit dead flesh or claim possession of lifeless bodies - nothing!

Psalm 82:7 says, “But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.” This is not a statement directed at Satan. It is addressed to the unjust rulers (whether human or spiritual) who were previously called “gods.” Jesus Himself cites this passage in John 10:34–35, referring to human judges. The warning is clear: though they were given a position of authority, they will face death like any other mortal. There is no reference to Satan in the chapter at all, and nothing about a legal sentence being handed down to him.

As for the incident with Moses’ body in Jude 9, Scripture is silent about the reason for Satan’s dispute. To claim that Satan was attempting to claim Moses’ dust under Genesis 3 grounds is 99.99% pure speculation. The text simply does not say that. Deuteronomy 34:6 makes it clear that God Himself buried Moses and that no one knows the location. That alone is sufficient to explain why Satan would be frustrated.

It is good and right to connect Scripture and to see the coherence of God’s plan, but that coherence must arise from what the text actually says, not from speculative associations that lack grounding in the words and grammar of Scripture. We must be careful not to read ideas into the text that are not present. Psalm 82 is a rebuke from God to unjust rulers. Genesis 3 is a judgment on the serpent, Adam, and Eve. They serve different purposes in their contexts and should not be artificially blended into a single courtroom scene unless the text itself leads us there, which it does not.

The glory of Scripture is not found in secret codes or speculative links. It is found in the clarity of God’s revealed truth, which speaks plainly to those who seek Him with a whole heart. The Word of God should be handled with care, reverence, and precision. It is not a toy that should be played with as if it were a hobbyist's plaything. The sort of connections you make are just exactly the way cults are formed.

 

[Ps82]

I've seen how finding the antecedent to the pronoun "YOU" in the opening question is important to interpreting Ps 82.

It was evident to me from just reading verse one of the chapter and understanding the truth of this: ... Judges (and jurors) first listen carefully to things like charges and testimonies presented to the court before he judges and then sentences. So I understood that judges are first off listeners.

So who began to testify? Now that took a lot of Bible study to realize who was asking the question ... and the question had three points:
To insinuate God was being unfair to him.
And he followed his insinuation against God with why he considered God to be unfair to him with a list.
This list made accusations of who it was who should more appropriately be judged.

The lengthy question, filled with frill, reminded me of the questions reporters often ask of political leaders. They really aren't asking an honest question but are accusing and listing their agenda while they have the microphone and opportunity to influence others. Just saying.

So there you go. The antecedent of "YOU" is God the Judge.
The great liar and accuser of mankind and in this case God as well ... is Satan.
Satan, (an angelic leader of a rebellious horde in heaven,) is THE ONE who is not a man ... but who will die like one (one of the mortal leaders among lost humanity).

Now, it is the end of Ps 82 that is the most exciting. God's heavenly plan and earthy mission is explained. Arise, O God ... inherit the nations!

 

[Clete]

I've seen how finding the antecedent to the pronoun "YOU" in the opening question is important to interpreting Ps 82.

It was evident to me from just reading verse one of the chapter and understanding the truth of this: ... Judges (and jurors) first listen carefully to things like charges and testimonies presented to the court before he judges and then sentences. So I understood that judges are first off listeners.

So who began to testify? Now that took a lot of Bible study to realize who was asking the question ... and the question had three points:
To insinuate God was being unfair to him.
And he followed his insinuation against God with why he considered God to be unfair to him with a list.
This list made accusations of who it was who should more appropriately be judged.

The lengthy question, filled with frill, reminded me of the questions reporters often ask of political leaders. They really aren't asking an honest question but are accusing and listing their agenda while they have the microphone and opportunity to influence others. Just saying.

So there you go. The antecedent of "YOU" is God the Judge.
The great liar and accuser of mankind and in this case God as well ... is Satan.
Satan, (an angelic leader of a rebellious horde in heaven,) is THE ONE who is not a man ... but who will die like one (one of the mortal leaders among lost humanity).

Now, it is the end of Ps 82 that is the most exciting. God's heavenly plan and earthy mission is explained. Arise, O God ... inherit the nations!

Is that really what you consider to be a convincing argument?

 

[Nick M]

He also says we are to seek him.

That isn't the point of that verse. He doesn't tell us everything and he is not obliged to tell us everything. Anyway, I find his very short video very compelling.

 

[Ps82]

Interesting. I enjoyed listening.
I'm off to a doctor appointment in just a minute; so didn't have time to dwell on everything that was said in the video. I will listen again later to see if I misunderstood parts, but here are my immediate thoughts:

I do read the King James Translation and in it I tend to take things both literally and figuratively. I am the most interested in the symbolic characteristics which can seem hidden and yet evident when you put truths together.

I am not an ancient language expert and rely on my Strong's Concordance for insight. I have always felt 'the Snake' was some form of Satan. Also that the phrases, cast down and made lower than, have to do with Satan losing his elevated position of power and glory. Like: we might say to someone disgusting, "You are lower than a worm!" Satan no longer held his pet position among other created beings. He was not cast out ... or down to earth to grovel, but his demotion made him lower in the eyes of God even than man and cows.

I'm not dogmatic as to whether he was a snake as we understand one ... he might have been some light bearing dragon ... but I definitely think he was a created creature of some form or he could spiritually indwell another creature for a time as I have heard some suggest. ??? Doesn't matter to me. I know what he did that was wrong and I believe I know something about his fate.