I CHOOSE to be here of my own Free Will

[IMJerusha]

Welcome to TOL Anto9us! :wave:

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live" Deuteronomy 30:19

I didn't catch 'em but I sure shot 'em as they bathed in the sun by the Trinity River!

Zdra-stvu-eetee! Kak pazhivayete? (Don't get excited. That's all I know! :chuckle: )

 

[Anto9us]

October -- I am glad your grandparents made it to Canada -- Pie Lady; I appreciate the Deuteronomy verse because it emphasizes human CHOICE

I will coast along here as a second-class citizen til I have 7 days and 25 posts or what-not

I support modern-day Israel because they are a DEMOCRACY -- ya know -- like the USA used to be before Obama

I do not look for a rebuilt Temple and red heifers being slaughtered and Gog of Magog comin round the mountain when He comes

but I will putter around here and look at MAD

til I reach "the age of accountability" on TOL

peace.

 

[chrysostom]

I am Anto9us - Singer of Songs.

I am Arminian.

welcome to tol

hope to see a discussion on arminianism

we need it

is this a good link for arminianism?

 

[Stripe]

If it is not free, it is not a will.

Welcome to TOL. :wave:

 

[Puppet]

October -- I am glad your grandparents made it to Canada -- Pie Lady; I appreciate the Deuteronomy verse because it emphasizes human CHOICE

I will coast along here as a second-class citizen til I have 7 days and 25 posts or what-not

I support modern-day Israel because they are a DEMOCRACY -- ya know -- like the USA used to be before Obama

I do not look for a rebuilt Temple and red heifers being slaughtered and Gog of Magog comin round the mountain when He comes

but I will putter around here and look at MAD

til I reach "the age of accountability" on TOL

peace.

Why haven't you reached the false "age of accountability "?

 

[Anto9us]

Because I don't have the SEVEN DAYS yet - and/or the 25 posts, Puppet.

(I don't really believe in an 'age of accountability' as a reality either)


Chrysostom - I will check out that link and give an opinion on whether it

' a good link for Arminianism '

 

[Anto9us]

Chrysostom; I feel that link is pretty accurate regarding Arminianism.

I take issue with one statement:

"it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace"

Some may think this is pure semantics, but Arminius himself qualified the issue thusly:

"It is impossible for a believer to fall from grace - but it is possible for a person to CEASE BEING A BELIEVER" AND THUS A PERSON CAN FALL - no longer being a believer"

Granted, it is splitting hairs a bit, but that was the view of Arminius himself. His followers -- known as THE REMONSTRANTS -- declared that 'once saved - always saved' vs 'once saved - NOT always saved'


was simply TOO CLOSE TO CALL -

the Remonstrants recused themselves from a decision about Perseverance altogether

I notice you are Catholic, Chrysostom -- and I would point out that the ancient church's issues between Augustine's Double Predestination and Pelagius' emphasis on Free Will may look like on the surface a similar issue as Calvinism vs Arminianism; however - Arminius went to lengths to distance himself from Pelagius - saying Pelagius was too "worksy" - emphasizing works rather than a choice to accept God's grace

So I offer certain CAVEATS of comparing Pelagius vs Augustine in this matter to Calvinism vs Arminianism

It seems the ancient church went with a "Semi-Pelagianism" -- in one of the few theological areas where Augustine did NOT hold sway -- iow, I understand it that the Double Predestination of Augustine "got shot down" in the ancient church

and that Calvin brought it out of mothballs a thousand years later; reviving the idea that God determines irrevocably that one person is destined for hell and another for heaven

of course, everything that I say about Calvinism (I as an Arminian) -- the Calvinists themselves will 'cry foul' at -- exclaiming that I am "misrepresenting Calvinism"

such it will always be

 

[I drank what?]

HA! that's just what the Calvinists wanted you to think!

 

[IMJerusha]

of course, everything that I say about Calvinism (I as an Arminian) -- the Calvinists themselves will 'cry foul' at -- exclaiming that I am "misrepresenting Calvinism"

Oh, well, Calvinists misrepresent Calvin from what I can tell.

 

[chrysostom]

Chrysostom; I feel that link is pretty accurate regarding Arminianism.

I take issue with one statement:

"it may be possible for a believer to fall from grace"

Some may think this is pure semantics, but Arminius himself qualified the issue thusly:

"It is impossible for a believer to fall from grace - but it is possible for a person to CEASE BEING A BELIEVER" AND THUS A PERSON CAN FALL - no longer being a believer"

Granted, it is splitting hairs a bit, but that was the view of Arminius himself. His followers -- known as THE REMONSTRANTS -- declared that 'once saved - always saved' vs 'once saved - NOT always saved'


was simply TOO CLOSE TO CALL -

the Remonstrants recused themselves from a decision about Perseverance altogether

I notice you are Catholic, Chrysostom -- and I would point out that the ancient church's issues between Augustine's Double Predestination and Pelagius' emphasis on Free Will may look like on the surface a similar issue as Calvinism vs Arminianism; however - Arminius went to lengths to distance himself from Pelagius - saying Pelagius was too "worksy" - emphasizing works rather than a choice to accept God's grace

So I offer certain CAVEATS of comparing Pelagius vs Augustine in this matter to Calvinism vs Arminianism

It seems the ancient church went with a "Semi-Pelagianism" -- in one of the few theological areas where Augustine did NOT hold sway -- iow, I understand it that the Double Predestination of Augustine "got shot down" in the ancient church

and that Calvin brought it out of mothballs a thousand years later; reviving the idea that God determines irrevocably that one person is destined for hell and another for heaven

of course, everything that I say about Calvinism (I as an Arminian) -- the Calvinists themselves will 'cry foul' at -- exclaiming that I am "misrepresenting Calvinism"

such it will always be

you have enough material here for a number of threads
but
first show me where you got
augustine's double predestination
and
I will lose all my respect for him
if
you can't
I will lose my respect for you

 

[OCTOBER23]

Anti-Bus said,

I do not look for a rebuilt Temple and red heifers being slaughtered
and Gog of Magog coming round the mountain when He comes
==========================================

I do and it will come in 2018.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by

Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the

prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,)

then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

 

[Anto9us]

I am havin' bad TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES with this site...

but so far am enjoying the POSTERS!


Octo-dad said:

"I do and it will come in 2018."

Well thank you for not designating a DAY and an HOUR...

Chrysostom -- if it came down to it -- I would rather have you lose all respect for ME than Augustine -- but I will do some research of the Double PreDestination and return in time

Augustine's CITY OF GOD is an amazing allegory; and he has other good points -- I just don't like the Predesto that got shot down or the Amilleniallism that won the day over premillennialism/Chiliasm at the time

Some theologians have a good curve ball but a weak fast ball - I think Calvin's COMMENTARY ON HABAKKUK is one of the best there is on Habakkuk (the one found at Qumran only covers ch 1 & 2 -- some think ch 3 a later addition)

I shall return

 

[Anto9us]

In my search for Double Predestination and Augustine, Chrysostom, I was led many places -- and actually JOINED A SITE called "Catholic Answers" -- but I felt referring to that site is not too kosher since one has to JOIN "Catholic Answers" to even see the posts.

But I do feel quite ecumenical for joining it !!

I begin the roasting/salutation of Augustine from a site called 'rustyparts'

when talking about stuff THIS OLD -- that's a dang good name!

--------

"In addition to the logical problems of predestination there are the Biblical problems with which Augustine had to contend. Augustine held that the predestined were fixed, and that their "number

is so certain that one can neither be added to them nor taken from them" (Corr Grat, 39).

Furthermore, Augustine holds that "in comparison to those that perish few [are elected]" (Corr Grat, 28).

How does he square this assertion with Scriptures such as John 1:7 and 1 Tim. 2:4 which claim that God "desires everyone to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth."

Augustine interprets these passages by claiming "all" means "the predestined."

It is akin to 1 Cor. 10:33 where Paul writes that he seeks to please everyone in all he does, but he does not please his persecutors,

rather only those in Christ's Church (Corr Grat, 44).

Is this an acceptable interpretation of these verses?

Does God not love those who are not chosen or do the non-elect experience the justly

deserved wrath of God for their sin? Are the lives and sufferings of most of the world who are not one of the elect meaningless since they were created for eternal suffering? How does one not lose

hope and the desire to evangelize in the face of these questions?"

http://rustyparts.com/predestination.php

-------------

Above is from "rustyparts.com" -- GUFFAW !!!

In any case -- here is a QUALIFIER for "all" -- 1000 years ahead of Calvin !



BTW -- if you are not 'OF THE ELECT' --

please get out of this thread IMMEDIATELY!!

 

[chrysostom]

In my search for Double Predestination and Augustine, Chrysostom, I was led many places -

I am sure augustine never used the phrase double predestination
and
I am surprised an arminian would use it

anyone using that phrase has already corrupted the definition of predestination

something the calvinists are forced to do with many other words

 

[Anto9us]

Guess Again, Grasshopper !!



http://www.reasons.org/blogs/reflec...augustine-contributed-to-philosophy-part-ii-2



"Although Pelagianism, a view that denies original sin and promotes the idea that salvation can be earned, went against Augustine’s views of grace through Christ, it did encourage Augustine to

focus his thinking on the doctrine of predestination. In his early writings, Augustine taught predestination based upon God’s foreknowledge. The idea was that God merely chose those human beings

whom He foreknew would freely choose to believe in Him.

However, the mature Augustine promoted predestination based upon God’s autonomous and inscrutable choice. This position holds that God chooses to extend His saving grace to some (the elect), but

not to all (bypassing the reprobate).1 Thus, God predestines some to eternal life via irresistible though not coercive grace, but leaves others in their sin to be justly condemned through their

own choice and deeds.



Augustine’s great and terrible doctrine of so-called



“double predestination”


was rejected by many in his time as it is by some today. However, Augustine believed that while God’s act of election may be inequitable, it is not unfair. Augustine reasoned that sinners have no

claim whatsoever to the grace of God. The choice as to whom God extends His grace is totally within His sovereign discretion and prerogative. Most importantly, Augustine believed his thinking on

the subject was simply reflecting the clear teaching of Scripture, especially the writings of the Apostle Paul (Romans 8–9; Ephesians 1)."


"Augustine’s strong predestinarian views influenced a number of Roman Catholic thinkers in history, but has been, for the most part, ignored by their modern counterparts. Augustine’s basic

perspectives on this topic were embraced largely by such Protestant Reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and are still reflected today in the historic confessional statements of the

Reformed theological tradition.

Endnotes:

1. Allan D. Fitzgerald, ed., Augustine through the Ages (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1999), s.v. “Predestination.”

Subjects: People of Faith, Philosophy of Religion
"


I am just WARMIN UP.

Barely begun.



I have read of Augustine's DOUBLE PREDESTINATION

for Decades

 

[Anto9us]

"Augustine of Hippo's early writings affirm that God's predestinating grace is granted on the basis of his foreknowledge of the human desire to pursue salvation, this changed after 396. His later

position affirmed the necessity of God granting grace in order for the desire for salvation to be awakened. However, Augustine does argue (against the Manicheans) that humans have free will;

however, their will is so distorted, and the Fall is so extensive, that in the postlapsarian world they can only choose evil.

Augustine's position raised objections. Julian bishop of Eclanum, expressed the view that Augustine was bringing Manichean thoughts into the church.[4] For Vincent of Lérins, this was a disturbing

innovation.[5] This new tension eventually became obvious with the confrontation between Augustine and Pelagius culminating in condemnation of Pelagianism (as interpreted by Augustine) at the

Council of Ephesus in 431. The British monk Pelagius denied Augustine's view of "predestination" in order to affirm that salvation is achieved by an act of free will.

The Eastern Orthodox Church tradition has never adopted the Augustinian view of predestination, and formed a doctrine of predestination by another historical route, sometimes called Semi-

Pelagianism in the West. The Western Church, including the Catholic and Protestant denominations, are predominantly Augustinian in some form, especially as interpreted by Gregory the Great and the

Second Council of Orange (a Western council that anathematized Semi-Pelagianism as represented in some of the writings of John Cassian and his followers). The council explicitly denied double

predestination.

In Catholic doctrine, the accepted understanding of predestination most predominantly follows the interpretation of Thomas Aquinas, and can be contrasted with the Jansenist interpretation of

Augustinianism, which was condemned by the Catholic Church during the Counter-Reformation. The only important branch of Western Christianity that continues to hold to a double predestination

interpretation of Augustinianism, is within the Calvinist branch of the Protestant Reformation. The meaning of this term is discussed under the subsection on Calvinism, below."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination


still warmin up -- and I dispute that summary of Council of Orange as only partially correct

 

[Anto9us]

Of course we all know that Augustine of Hippo -- as great a theologian as he was

used to be a Manichean

please tell me that all accept this

 

[Anto9us]

I Drank What --


(shhhhhh... I am trying to trick the Calvinists into thinking that they have me thinking how they want me thinking)


so I can spring up later and spray HOT COALS on 'em -- or however that goes...

 

[I drank what?]

I Drank What --


(shhhhhh... I am trying to trick the Calvinists into thinking that they have me thinking how they want me thinking)


so I can spring up later and spray HOT COALS on 'em -- or however that goes...

they want you to spray hot coals, dance puppet dance !

i tend to spend as much time debating with people who do not believe in Free Will as i do arguing with people that don't believe that they exist...

it can be fun sometimes

"calvinists" is what happens when the human brain tries to logic stuff from bad interpretations of scripture, it can't handle then blue screens, unfortunately when people crash they can keep going about their merry little lives

weird

 

[Puppet]

I CHOOSE TO HAVE MAPLE WALNUT ICE CREAM

OF MY OWN FREE WILL.

And it is YUMMY for my Tummy.

If God didn't create walnuts, you wouldn't have any free will to choose that ice cream. The walnut wouldn't exist just like free will don't exist.