That's pleasant.
How to understand Paul
- Thread starter iouae
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iouae
Well-known member
And from this Jewish perspective, "the law" is a big deal.
In the NT the phrase "the law" is used 154 times.
In Romans alone, the phrase "the law" is used 50 times.
Obviously Paul is viewing the Gospel from the perspective of his upbringing at the feet of Gamaliel. And his education probably involved arguing over all the minutia of the OT. He brings some of this to the original, simple Gospel of Christ.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Sure he was! And I'll show you how.
The disciples of the Lord were full of the Holy Ghost. Take Stephen for example:
Acts 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
Acts 6:5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:
…
Stephen, full of the Holy Ghost delivers some history (Acts 7:2-50 KJV) and a scathing murder indictment against them (Acts 7:51-56 KJV)
And what did they do?
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
And who there, but Saul!
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
And what is he doing? He is “Consenting unto his death” !
And if that isn’t enough for you
Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
“Breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord” is most certainly “ Saul “speaketh against the Holy Ghost" of Matthew 12:31-32 KJV)” as the disciples of the Lord were filled with the Holy Ghost!
So unless the Lord was going to shew forth something new through Paul, he had no hope of forgiveness! And that's exactly what we see!
1 Timothy 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Actually Galatians IS an attack on trying to keep the whole law as a way to righteousness, not just circumcision.
Paul warns if you submit to circumcision then you are obliged to keep the whole law.
Paul warns if you submit to circumcision then you are obliged to keep the whole law.
brewmama
New member
Oh brother. Always with the crazy remarks. WHY do you claim Peter didn't understand Paul, when that is NOT what he said?
Paul blasphemed Jesus thinking he was a false prophet and not believing Jesus was the Christ, the Anointed One.
KingdomRose
New member
Huh?
KingdomRose
New member
I'm with you on that. Peter said that some things Paul said were hard to understand, but he didn't say that he didn't understand them.
KingdomRose
New member
Are you not familiar with what Jesus said about that?
"Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him." (Luke 12:10, NASB)
Don't understand what blasphemy means? It means attributing to the demons something that the Holy Spirit has accomplished (as directed by the Father). The Pharisees were blaspheming when they said that Jesus "had a demon," meaning that the works he was doing were expressions of Satan's power rather than God's power by the Holy Spirit.
iouae
Well-known member
THE UNPARDONABLE SIN
People permanently rejected by God (those damned), all have one thing in common.
THEY HAVE ALL SEEN AND EXPERIENCED THE POWER OF GOD, AND HAVE REJECTED THIS.
That is what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
Let me give you a comprehensive list of all those the Bible says are damned forever.
Judas, Son of Perdition, saw Christ's miracles and rejected these.
The Pharisees, same reason. And it was a knowing rejection. They knew these miracles were from above, not below.
King Saul, chosen of God, empowered by the Holy Spirit to even prophesy, yet let his relationship slip, and ended up going to a witch.
The slave generation of Israelites who came out of Egypt, saw God's miracles, yet built a golden calf and ascribed their deliverance to this idol. God swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His eternal rest (Heb 3:11).
Adam - who walked and talked with God, then disobeyed, and never sought reconciliation. There is nothing more God can do which would persuade Adam to love and obey Him.
Let's have a look at Matt 13's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
This is spoken to the Pharisees who had just witnesses Christ's miracles. They were faced with two possibilities only. Either these paranormal events were from God or from the Devil. They wilfully chose to ascribe them to Satan, against even what their better judgment was telling them. They did not want to lose position and power, and they were not humble enough to submit to Christ's authority. They had everything to lose by following Christ. And they knew this.
Nicodemus spoke for all of the Scribes and Pharisees when he said…
John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
This ties in with Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is possible for non-believers to be "once-enlightened". The Pharisees of Christ's day, are a case in point. They saw the miracles, and in this way "tasted of the heavenly gift". And they fell away, meaning deliberately and knowingly rejected Messiah.
They cannot be restored, ever, to favour with God.
When Christ, in Matt 23, seven times pronounced "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" He was passing final judgment upon them that they were forever damned.
People permanently rejected by God (those damned), all have one thing in common.
THEY HAVE ALL SEEN AND EXPERIENCED THE POWER OF GOD, AND HAVE REJECTED THIS.
That is what it means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
Let me give you a comprehensive list of all those the Bible says are damned forever.
Judas, Son of Perdition, saw Christ's miracles and rejected these.
The Pharisees, same reason. And it was a knowing rejection. They knew these miracles were from above, not below.
King Saul, chosen of God, empowered by the Holy Spirit to even prophesy, yet let his relationship slip, and ended up going to a witch.
The slave generation of Israelites who came out of Egypt, saw God's miracles, yet built a golden calf and ascribed their deliverance to this idol. God swore in His wrath that they would not enter into His eternal rest (Heb 3:11).
Adam - who walked and talked with God, then disobeyed, and never sought reconciliation. There is nothing more God can do which would persuade Adam to love and obey Him.
Let's have a look at Matt 13's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
This is spoken to the Pharisees who had just witnesses Christ's miracles. They were faced with two possibilities only. Either these paranormal events were from God or from the Devil. They wilfully chose to ascribe them to Satan, against even what their better judgment was telling them. They did not want to lose position and power, and they were not humble enough to submit to Christ's authority. They had everything to lose by following Christ. And they knew this.
Nicodemus spoke for all of the Scribes and Pharisees when he said…
John 3:2
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
This ties in with Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
It is possible for non-believers to be "once-enlightened". The Pharisees of Christ's day, are a case in point. They saw the miracles, and in this way "tasted of the heavenly gift". And they fell away, meaning deliberately and knowingly rejected Messiah.
They cannot be restored, ever, to favour with God.
When Christ, in Matt 23, seven times pronounced "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" He was passing final judgment upon them that they were forever damned.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
KingdomRose
New member
This is an excellent post. I couldn't explain it better myself. You obviously have read and considered ALL Scriptures, and you have drawn the correct conclusions about what blasphemy is, and that even the elect can fall from grace by willfully turning away from God and Christ---knowing full well what the reality is.
KingdomRose
New member
Saul had not experienced the power of God yet. He was ignorant. He said, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief." (I Timothy 1:13, NASB)
He was not familiar with the truth of God and Christ when he "blasphemed." He obviously didn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit, because he was ignorant of the truth. He truly thought that he was doing God a favor by persecuting Christians. The majority of the religious leaders (as has been brought out) saw first-hand the power of God through Jesus and yet stuck with their assertions that Jesus was using the power of Satan. Saul changed his mind. The others did not.
Zeke
Well-known member
Two different Mothers, yet one (Sarah) is the Mother us all concerning the spiritual birth within Galatians 4:26-28, Luke 17:20-21, that Christians have been taught is a historical physical virgin birth from Hagar who represents the efforts of flesh Galatians 4:24.
God judges no one and Jesus does not reject those who reject him.
And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47 NKJV)
No one can be judged before they die.
iouae
Well-known member
Then why was Judas called the "son of perdition" before he hanged himself?
Perdition = damned
iouae
Well-known member
Exactly.
Saul at that stage had not yet "tasted" the Holy Spirit or experienced it. Saul/Paul genuinely believed Jesus was a threat, unlike other Pharisees who knew he was from God. Saul/Paul was genuinely deceived or ignorant, and this is exactly the kind of person Christ came to save.
The High Priest on the other hand was condemned because he seemingly was not ignorant.
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Ben Masada
New member
Only one is legitimately defined as the unpardonable sin. It is the sin of suicide because the chance is lost to ever repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. "Thou shall not kill" includes also and especially the killing of oneself. Since we have lost the chance to regret, it will become forever unpardonable. Let no one look anywhere for a sin that cannot be pardoned because it does not exist. As long as we are alive and have Freewill, the chance is always there to be forgiven.
Ben Masada
New member
Now, I understand the question of the OP. "How to understand Paul." A Jew is circumcised on the 8th day of birth. At that age, no one has the attribute of Fireewill to submit or not to circumcision; unless he is Joining the Lord's Covenant through conversion to Judaism. (Isaiah 56:1-8) As I see now, no one can understand Paul.
Besides, where did he get the idea that circumcision obligates one to keep the whole Law? We are rather expected to honor the whole Law; to accept or to adopt it. No one is expected to keep the whole Law. Even Jesus did not as he broke the Golden Rule which covers the whole second part of the Decalogue. (Mat. 23:13-33) In fact, we read from Ecclesiastes 7:20 that, "There has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned." That's why we have the chance to set things right with the Lord so that our sins as scarlet red become as white as snow" as
long as we repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)