Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Noted that it's not enough for you that the text says it.
How To Get To Heaven When You Die
- Thread starter xfrodobagginsx
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Noted that it's not enough for you that the text says it.
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Again, we need to see what the texts MEAN based on their CONTEXT.
I fully understand that your RCC disrespect for scripture makes this a problem for you.
I agree with you ... saved by grace, and the Jews have the same opportunity to the same process as us. Through grace of accepting Jesus and being born again. There is no way they can keep all the laws and get there.
All people are saved by grace ... that's the new covenant of Christ for all men. I believe even King David was saved by grace and somehow understood and believed there was to be a promised one to come ... which he called "My Lord." as in [The LORD said unto My LORD.]
xfrodobagginsx
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xfrodobagginsx
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Yes I agree. No Scriptural Basis for this assertion. We are saved to the uttermost by faith in Christ and His Sacrifice.
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That's good.
If you have no scriptural basis... then you have no basis at all.
Can you support this claim? If so... how?
xfrodobagginsx
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Is Justin Johnson a dispensationalist?
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Yes, Justin is Mid-Acts.
He rightly divides the word of truth, as he should and as we all should.
Broad is their pathway to destruction. They have to keep the law of Moses, and believe in their messiah. If they do not believe, they are condemned already. After the departure of the church, there will be a return to the law of Moses. This is scriptural, as the Lord Jesus Christ demands it. It will be the end of the dispensation of grace. Israel is saved as a nation, that is to what I am referring. You are not born again, neither are they. They will be resurrected, that is born again.
xfrodobagginsx
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That was true up until the destruction of the temple in 70 ad. Now it is required of all Jews and gentiles salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone believing that he died and Rose from the dead, shedding his blood as the sacrifice for their sins.
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Idolater
"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Lies.
70 AD had nothing to do with it. Salvation was available to both Jew and Gentile "by grace through faith in Christ alone believing that he died and Rose from the dead, shedding his blood as the sacrifice for their sins", as you put it, well before 70 AD. The events of 70 AD were an effect of Israel being cut off, not the event itself. We know with biblical certainty that Israel had been cut off at some point before Romans was written, which was in the mid 50's AD. Romans 9 - 11 clearly indicate not only that Israel had been cut off but why that happened and that their cut off condition is temporary...
Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
I'm curious to understand something. You aren't the first to associate 70 AD with major theological changes concerning Israel. I agree that it isn't entirely disconnected but, as I said, it's an effect of the changes; a result of biblical events, and does not stand as the major turning point itself. The turning point, as Scripture very clearly reveals, came well before that. So my question is this: what leads someone to treat 70 AD, a clearly extra-biblical historical event, as if it marked the decisive moment in God's redemptive program? Seems like if the events of 70 AD was the point in history where things changed for Israel, it would have been made part of the biblical record. Right?
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Due to the dispensation of grace given to Paul for us. The covenant of circumcision is everlasting. To inherit their land, they must keep the law of Moses.
xfrodobagginsx
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Of course they have not been canceled. After the Rapture, and the day of the Lord starts, the church will be removed from the Earth and God will once again turn his attention back to israel. They will be back under the law during that time until Christ's Second Coming. But as for right now, until God deals with Israel specifically, Jews and Gentiles alike are under the gospel of grace.
My question remains. On what grounds do you associate the events of 70 AD with when the change happened rather than the biblical events that occurred a generation (or so) earlier?
xfrodobagginsx
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Christ died in rust from the dead in 33 ad. Paul was called close to 40 ad. The two programs ran side by side until 70 ad. In 70 AD the Romans invaded and the Jews were scattered in All Nations. They were unable to perform their sacrifices because the temple had been destroyed. Peter wrote instructing the Jews to go to Paul's writings for salvation. This is when Grace took over and the law was done the reason that Israel was scattered is because they rejected their Messiah.
Jesus died at around 33 years old, be started His ministry at around 30 and ministered for about 3 years.
He was born around 4-3 BC (based on a number of things, not the least of which being the conjunction of Regulus and Jupiter),
If your claim was true, He'd have been 36. He didn't stay on earth that long.
So no, Christ's DBR was 30 AD.
Paul was called about a year after Pentecost, which was soon after Christ's DBR.
In other words, around 31-32 AD, nowhere near 40 AD, and then three years later, he visited Peter in Jerusalem in secret. Then 14 years after that, he visits Jerusalem again for the Jerusalem Council, Acts 15 and Galatians 2, around 49-50 AD.
Still no connection to 70 AD.
You're missing over 20 years.
I didn't ask you to rephrase your belief in different words. I asked you to explain WHY you believe it. Is it just an assumption or has someone presented an actual argument that supports it?
Further, as I pointed out in my previous post, we know without any question whatsoever that Israel had been cut off prior to 70 AD. This statement of yours seem compatible with at least that much, saying that the two programs ran concurrently until 70 AD but what's confusing is the choosing of this arbitrary date. John was certainly still alive as were surely many other believers from the previous dispensation when Rome sacked Jerusalem. Do you believe that they just stopped being members of Israel because of these events and were simply shunted into the Body of Christ? If so, what do you do with Romans 11 which teaches explicitly that such things do not happen?
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Incidentally, it seems to me that we have good reason to believe that Paul was called about a year (not seven years) after Pentecost, when Israel was cut off and Paul was converted on his way to Damascus.
Luke 13:6 He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9 And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ ”
Jesus, in quick succession was fulfilling one Jewish Feast after another. Tabernacles had been fulfilled (at least partially) with Christ's incarnation (John 1:14), the entire Passover week had been fulfilled with the events leading up to and including the crucifixion (I Corinthians 5:7), Unleavened Bread while He was in the tomb (I Peter 1:19), First Fruits with His resurrection (I Corinthians 15:20) and then the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) with the giving of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4). The plan was for Christ to return soon thereafter (Matthew 16:28 and elsewhere), for Israel to receive their king and fulfill Daniels 70th week of seven years after which Jesus would reign over Israel's enemies for a thousand years.
If Paul isn't converted until 40 AD that's the whole of Daniel's 70th week already, so that doesn't work at all. However, if we take the Luke 13 passage as a serious warning then it would seem to indicate that Israel would be given about a year after being "fertilized" with the Holy Spirit and if they refused by that time to respond in faith, the Fig tree would be cut down. This line of thinking would put Paul's conversion only about a year after Pentecost. Which, by the way, the best evidence would put both the crucifixion and Pentecost in 30 AD. Specifically, Pentecost would probably have been Sunday, May 28, AD 30 and thus Paul's conversion would have happened in the summer of 31 AD.
Jesus' converts were not performing sacrifices any longer anyway. The main theme of the book of Hebrews is that Jesus is the fulfillment and replacement of the Old Testament sacrificial system. It was written specifically to Jewish believers who were tempted to return to the temple rituals, and it lays out why doing so would be a step backward from the reality that had now come. The fact the there isn't any mention at all of the temple having been destroyed, not to mention the fact that Hebrews speaks about Temple worship and practice in the present tense (e.g. Heb. 10:1-3), we can know that Hebrews was written BEFORE the events of 70 AD.
Peter never wrote any such thing. Where did you ever get such an idea?
I agree that Israel was cut off and eventually scattered because they rejected their Messiah. There's no question about that. It's the timing of it that I'm challenging you on. I just don't see any reason to believe that the events of 70 AD had anything to do with it. Those events would rightly be understood as a result of Israel being cut off but not as the cutting off itself.
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Bladerunner
Active member
I disagree that after the church( His body, His Bride) is removed from this Earth, the dispensation of Grace will disappear. For as in the beginning, it is by the Grace of God that mankind is still here. Abraham never formally knew what the laws of Moses were. By the Grace of God is the only thing that salvation comes from. The 'Everlasting Gospel' will be the law from the time after the Rapture to the time of Eternity which includes the millennium to come. During this time, there will be multitudes of those that show their faith in Jesus by losing their heads (literally). For after the Pre-Trib Rapture event happens and it will happen, there will be for a short period of time, no one left on earth above ground or below ground that believes in Jesus Christ..Those that die during this period of time, formally know as the 'tribulation' saints are brought on by the 144,000 Jewish ministers, the Angel (carrying the Everlasting Gospel) and the two witnesses all sent to earth to preach the Everlasting Gospel to those that would come to believe in Jesus Christ during Daniel''s 70th week.