musterion
Well-known member
Read your own verse citation; pay attention to "because" and what comes after it.
How the Gospel Works
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Read your own verse citation; pay attention to "because" and what comes after it.
Lon
Well-known member
I don't. Christ and all He has done, is the Chief Cornerstone or the Stone the builders rejected and stumbled over. How?
For a few posts, lets assume you and I are neither one extreme nor the other. We have to simply discuss what we both believe. Let's assume, for the next few posts, I'm Arminian. Here is the beginning of such a conversation:
He only did one thing - taught salvation and provided for it. That blood which 'could' save those who rejected, rejected, they are not saved. Do you have any problem, whatsoever, with a person rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ? (Forget Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge) He obviously came to save. All? If He came to save all, all would be saved? You nor I believe that. Why? Why don't you believe it? At the end of this, you and I are going to agree and a good many things. In order to be biblical, we MUST agree on a great many things. Let's start here. -Lon
musterion
Well-known member
Hebrews 11:6, which we like to call a pandispensational truth: always was true, is true now, will always be true. God wants to be believed and deserves to be believed. But men don't HAVE to believe and therein lies their condemnation. Adam should've, didn't. Israel should've, didn't. Many today should, don't. Some want to chalk that up to God's foreordaining them to reprobation. I'll stick with what the Bible actually says.
Sorry to butt in.
musterion
Well-known member
Since I brought it up...
Numbers 20:12
Psalm 78:22
John 3:18-19
2 Thess 2:10
Rev 21:8
Either all men have been given the ability to believe God or not, or God is back of every one of those cases of unbelief, which He condemned or will condemn, which makes Him a liar. Pick one.
Numbers 20:12
Psalm 78:22
John 3:18-19
2 Thess 2:10
Rev 21:8
Either all men have been given the ability to believe God or not, or God is back of every one of those cases of unbelief, which He condemned or will condemn, which makes Him a liar. Pick one.
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I do know of any Calvinist who would deny what Nang actually posted. I know I have said it often enough, e.g.,
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...st-w-o-works&p=4954112&viewfull=1#post4954112
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-Imposition&p=5024997&viewfull=1#post5024997
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Faith-Alone&p=4870176&viewfull=1#post4870176
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...d-the-Gospel&p=5021296&viewfull=1#post5021296
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ed-Religions&p=4884783&viewfull=1#post4884783
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...hey-Are-Born&p=4879036&viewfull=1#post4879036
If you think these sort of statements related to the total inability of the unsaved to aid in their quickening are unique only to hyper-Calvinists, I do not think you actually understand what exactly separates hyper-Calvinists from the historic Calvinist:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115439-Eternal-Security-!&p=4643308&viewfull=1#post4643308
AMR
musterion
Well-known member
I didn't say no others believed it. I complemented her (him?) for being honest enough to say it directly, briefly and bluntly. We don't get that much here.
musterion
Well-known member
Thanks for the offer but I don't think I think that. What I do think is that the hypers tend to be a lot more direct and to the point about what they really believe. That has been my experience, anyway.
Lon
Well-known member
Not butting in and thank you. You are starting to describe something important, at least to me AND I think shared.
As with EE, good enough for right now. It doesn't matter 'how' He knows for this all to make sense. For the most part, it won't matter either way for this discussion. If you agree, to any extent, that God knows who is going to be saved, and who will not, to me, more than half the battle.
Last two sentences... 1) do you mean that knowing ahead of time even among Arminians, is not foreordination? There are scripture examples of what God doesn't want, but says "so be it" after stubbornness. For me = foreordination. "Thus will it be" doesn't meant God 'caused' thus, however (I'm thinking of Israel demanding a king by example). It is important that you and I either agree or disagree that this is foreordination (sometimes we get caught up on terms/foreign terms/different-meaning terms). 2) What does the bible 'actually' say? Does it say no foreordination? Does foreordination exist at all? My questions are meant to get you being clear and ensuring my assertion against yours, that we are often more on than same page than not in this thread.
I know that 'looks' duplicitous, but I assure you it is not.
Frustration, I think, comes from me saying things different than others. Don't worry, AMR and Nang freely correct me when I'm wrong and I always appreciate it. If I am going to carry the name 'Calvinist' they have every right to do so. Both have been much longer than I. Generally, Calvinists give me pos reps and thanks, so I'm pretty sure I am representing fair, if not well or clear, but clear is my endeavor else I'd defer to others and just not participate.
In a nutshell, I think, even with disagreement, we 'think' alike, at the least over scriptures a lot more than not.
Lon
Well-known member
No, else they 'would' hear and thus be saved. "Ears" in this case is probably important for distinction. Not only people, nearly all animals have ears. Rather, this specifically about one that 'hears' God. The Lord Jesus Christ often said "for him/her' who has ears" (AND) "to hear."
The largest thing someone is looking for is a desire to put blame where it belongs. Blame is a "judge's" responsibility. I endeavor to never give a non-Christian the false-right or false-idea he/she is any kind of judge. It will continue to give them wadding for ears that don't hear and continue to encourage them to think they are the masters of their own universe with every right to judge God or man. Instead, I try to preach His Word over and over again. The Word of God is the only thing that divides joint and marrow. "Fluff" (any banter other than scriptures) allows them to stuff their ears and shut out God's words. For me, I try to speak the scriptures more than 'discuss' with one who 'begins stuffing his/her ears' after hearing the gospel. At the very least, walking away is preferred to watching them do it to themselves. It is sad watching someone spiritually deaf, intentionally shoving more garbage in their ears to avoid my Lord Jesus Christ. I too have cried watching any do it.
Lon
Well-known member
I am not always sure it is a theological disagreement, but rather a communication disagreement, but correct, I disagree and am clear on that.
Those who reject Christ 'do' think they 'benefit' by their rejection, else they would be saved. John 9:39-41
Yeah, for me, not enough. I don't care about concise and neat, nor even really if, without all 'fuzzy/cloudy' parts it is logical. I care about what is true and am as willing as a Berean to find it.
Um...the universalist says the Way finds everyone, eventually.
Why? Why Can't "I" mutually quit talking to you, for instance, when you stop talking to me (by example)?
Read back. You basically said God has a right "even 'if'" He decided over salvation. Your 'if' already let Calvinists off the hook as you said it.
Imho? You are a cognitively dissenting Calvinist for the admission. Imho, It puts you pretty much on page with me.
To me, these to are not 'by necessity' mutually exclusive propositions. I believe them both. Okay, so you think I'm inconsistent or no true Calvinist, right? When you were in a Calvinist church, did you ever have these discussions? Something didn't/doesn't make sense.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Such is the biblical definition of a reprobate. A soul out of favor with God, with no hope of His grace.
That is why none of us sinners should ever call another sinner a reprobate. It is so serious a judgement, it can only be levied by God Almighty!
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Are you saying that the Gospel is universally salvific?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Indeed, the Gospel has the power to save all men who believe.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Right Divider
Body part
That matches perfectly:
1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
(4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
I believe it.
As stated before this is not a Calvinist site and you are not going to get a lot of sympathy from Knight or any of those that own the site. The bias of this site is going to be more toward the Mad and Open side of the spectrum. As a mod I prefer to stay out of debates between Christians. I am no teacher and don't really meet the qualifications to be one. I was chosen by Knight partly because I don't believe belonging to a particular schism in the church or even sitting in a church pew on Sunday necessarily makes a person a Christian. Church pews are full of people that do not know what it means to have Christ in their lives. They play church on Sunday but they have not allowed Christ into their lives. What comes out of their lips and computer keys is most definitely not Christian. My church has a few of those.
I am not really hostile toward Christians of any kind. They can be found in many mainline churches regardless of the name above the door. The words in the Bible are pretty simple when it comes to the requirement to becoming a Christian.
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:31 The qualifier being accepting the Lord Jesus Christ. One is not saved being outside of Christ. Universalism is bunk. It is Jesus that does the saving. Not you.
That being said, I have buckled down on Pate because he is opening too many threads that say the same thing than abandoning them. He is diluting his argument. A few well managed threads would be more effective.
I am happy to see though, that TOL is returning to its roots in a sense where members are discussing topics in mainstream Christian theology.
Why would one be without hope today?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Which is what I say about works salvation.... a false gospel. :thumb:
glorydaz
Well-known member
While there is breath, there is hope.