How the Gospel Works

Lon

Well-known member
Wow.... double is TWICE as good
.
There is always one step back in the logic process with a Calvinist and I will apologize again, I don't think we Calvinists do a good job on this. To me, God 'prescriptively' wills. He 'decretively' wills also. I think we should be saying so, one or the other, every time we speak. Some Calvinists do not believe in a 'prescriptive' will. In AMR's post, it is important that such is mentioned. For me, as far as my grasp of Calvinism to date' such is not double-predestination and cannot be, at least in my limited understanding, at least in lumping them together. God truly desires all men come to salvation. The work of the Son is able to save to the uttermost, those who are perishing. So, for me and no few other Calvinists, a 'double' would mean 'by the same token.' To me, it isn't then double, because it is not by the same token as far as I can tell. -Lon
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life

Enemies Lon!

It says that He... Himself Desires that NONE should be Lost! NONE! He taught us to Love Our Enemies! Does that make God a Universalist?

Is the blood of human choice now on God's head... as well? Is Christ Duplicitous?

Lon... He died for ALL! He ressurected for ALL! Not ALL place their hope in Him or accept what He is offering... but.. @Lon... He damn well DIED for even the most hateful... of us. He died for the most wicked of us! He offers salvation to all! Is God now a man that He goes back on His Word? He is our God-Man... and His Love goes far past ours...

Please explain how you... you... Lon... could even suggest that He didn't die for even those that reject Him.

:e4e:
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

BANNED
Banned
On the basis of their willful decision, or on the choosing of God?

I know, that when I share the Gospel message, if anyone hears and believes the message, it is because God chose them in Christ for the purpose of redemption.



My lack of omniscience precludes me from knowing who will believe, until they make confession. That has nothing to do with Limited Atonement.



At least proclaiming the Gospel indiscriminately is not lying to people, telling them God loves all of them, when He doesn't and that God will save them if they give Him permission, when He might not.

In fact, anything like the above is adding to the word of God, unbiblical, and is not the Gospel at all.





But that is not what is proclaimed. The first part of the Gospel message is to tell sinners that they sin against the moral standards (Law) of God, and are condemned by doing so. Second part of the Gospel message, is that there is only one escape, and that is to believe that God came in the flesh, fulfilled all the Law without sin on His part, suffered the wrath of God for sin and died the death of His people on the cross, achieving forgiveness for their sins through His shed blood, and resurrected from death to provide those He justified access to everlasting life in heaven with Him.





There are several safeguards against creating false conversions, with the language I suggest in the above.



I think this is very important . . . what are our motivations? What is in our hearts when we share this good news?

Mine is a desire to see others find the release from slavery to sin, death, and the devil, like I found through the resurrection power of the Holy Spirit and the power of the biblical Gospel message in my own life.

I feel no compunction that I have to persuade or sell the audience of the Truth of the message, but simply believe I might witness a Godly conversion of hearts/minds freed by the truths of Holy Scripture.

What about you? What exactly is your motivation to proclaim the Gospel? I would not be surprised to learn we share the same reasons for fulfilling this commission from the Lord.

??

If we have no part in the choice... why even speak to any about Him? If only the "Elect" are saved... why even concern ourselves with witness?

Is that attitude not identical to the attitude of those who wanted Him Dead? Did He not go where the very disciples didn't want Him to go and to those that the very disciples abhorred?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
If we have no part in the choice... why even speak to any about Him? If only the "Elect" are saved... why even concern ourselves with witness?

Because preaching is the ordained means by which God has determined to call and draw His people to faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 10:8-17
 

musterion

Well-known member
If we have no part in the choice... why even speak to any about Him? If only the "Elect" are saved... why even concern ourselves with witness?

That's how hyper-C's reason it. It's not inconsistent.

Is that attitude not identical to the attitude of those who wanted Him Dead? Did He not go where the very disciples didn't want Him to go and to those that the very disciples abhorred?

Ask a Calvinist?
 

musterion

Well-known member
Okay. It is Arminian, but let's role with it. Later, if you'll allow, I'll further define 'Exhaustive Definite Foreknowledge' and we'll disagree BUT I don't think that conversation necessary at the moment. We are talking about Definite Foreknowledge at least and so it serves logically (and I'll show that as we go). Blessings in Him today, In Him -Lon

All I'm saying is, if you're suggesting God based election on what He foreknew men would CHOOSE to do -- rather than what He irresistibly MADE them do -- you're going to hear about it from the Calvinists and they're going to kick you out of the club.

You can't ride this fence, Lon.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The scripture plainly teaches that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

It is imperative that we should believe this. To deny that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord. The reason that God accepted Jesus back into heaven is because Jesus had victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15. Jesus now sits at the right hand of God as the "King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been abolished. God now sees all things in his Son Jesus Christ. This is why Paul wrote, "You are complete in him" Colossians 2:10.
 

musterion

Well-known member
I disagree.

You are disagreeing with Mr/Mrs Nang. You are clear on that, yeah?

The whole word, for instance, needs to hear the gospel.

Not sure why when a good portion of the world isn't allowed to benefit by it.

"Why" perhaps later, but it must go out into all the world. There may be no middle ground on specific items pertaining to the gospel, but for me, this bin of all or nothing is too sloppy.

I find it concise, logical, tidy and neat. Completely lacking in the pettifogging, gray, impenetrably dense walls of stodgy Reformed text, unquestioned assumptions and unexamined consequences of their doctrine.

We all know, for instance, the Way is narrow and few find it. All of us. Even a Universalists knows few find the Way, he/she discounts the Way is salvation (foolishly unintelligently). For me then: EXACTLY WRONG, by necessity.

Um...the universalist says the Way finds everyone, eventually.


Very important: Find out 'why' a Calvinist tends to conflate them. In a nutshell, "Atonement" is limited. Only those "made right" (atoned). Thus, it is limited by that definition: Only those 'right' with God are atoned for.

Limited by man's refusal? Or God's reprobation? Pick one because you can't have both.

So 'if' is God still righteous 'if?' Your 'if' implication and statement implies logically, that He is (would be). If so, why in the wide-world are you arguing with Calvinists when you yourself would still see God as Righteous and good? :confused:

What?

Does it matter? Can you or I, however polarized we might be, do a thing about it?

*sigh*

If the Gospel is open to ALL without exception (i.e., if Calvinism is false) then it's an amazing thing to think anyone can be saved by the power of God unto salvation.

If the Gospel is open only to SOME...but I've said it all before.
 
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musterion

Well-known member
On the basis of their willful decision, or on the choosing of God?

What did Paul say? On behalf of God, as if God Himself were begging, be reconciled to God.

If God elected all who would be irresistibly saved, He wouldn't need to beg, and begging them to do so would be a lie.

If God reprobated the rest, begging them to be reconciled would be a lie.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

Put another way: the reprobates can't be saved and the elect can't perish.


I know, that when I share the Gospel message, if anyone hears and believes the message, it is because God chose them in Christ for the purpose of redemption.

Reprobates can believe for a time. What you see reveals nothing because you're putting faith in a hypothetical process (personal election) that NO ONE is privvy to.

But if you trusted what Paul said, that the saving Gospel is ITSELF the power of God to salvation, you'd rejoice that anyone and everyone might be saved, if they simply believe, and that when they do believe, they ARE saved.

My lack of omniscience precludes me from knowing who will believe, until they make confession.

What does confession prove? Even deceived reprobates can do that for a season. You yourself could turn out to be one. Anyone could be.[

That has nothing to do with Limited Atonement.

Indirectly, perhaps, but it has everything to do with it.

At least proclaiming the Gospel indiscriminately is not lying to people, telling them God loves all of them, when He doesn't .

Are you saying God does love everyone, even the reprobate?

But that is not what is proclaimed. The first part of the Gospel message is to tell sinners that they sin against the moral standards (Law) of God, and are condemned by doing so. Second part of the Gospel message, is that there is only one escape, and that is to believe that God came in the flesh, fulfilled all the Law without sin on His part, suffered the wrath of God for sin and died the death of His people on the cross, achieving forgiveness for their sins through His shed blood, and resurrected from death to provide those He justified access to everlasting life in heaven with Him.

None of that applies to any number of people you could ever preach to. That makes it a lie from the mouth of God, and it does make you a liar (dishonest, at the very least) because you believe in Limited Atonement and so you know what you're preaching CAN'T save some of them. Not won't, CAN'T.

There are several safeguards against creating false conversions, with the language I suggest in the above.

There is only one safeguard. Preach the Gospel of the grace of God in its purity.

I think this is very important . . . what are our motivations? What is in our hearts when we share this good news? Mine is a desire to see others find the release from slavery to sin, death, and the devil

ONLY if they're elected to do so. Otherwise, they're already as good as in Hell.

I feel no compunction that I have to persuade or sell the audience of the Truth of the message, but simply believe I might witness a Godly conversion of hearts/minds freed by the truths of Holy Scripture.

I'd agree with that.

What about you? What exactly is your motivation to proclaim the Gospel?.

To see the lost saved. ANY of the lost. ANYONE.

Limited Atonement forbids you saying that. If you're honest you'll admit it.
 

musterion

Well-known member
You all can talk all you want about God's love for the lost but at least be honest -- you mean God's love only for the elect who He hasn't yet quickened unto faith.

Seriously, people, how do you keep a straight face, or not vomit, when you tell someone God loves them when, for all you can know, He determined before they were born that He wasn't going to save them?

How is that love?

Limited atonement = limited salvation = limited good news = limited love...if it can even be called love.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
You all can talk all you want about God's love for the lost but at least be honest -- you mean God's love only for the elect who He hasn't yet quickened unto faith.

Seriously, people, how do you keep a straight face, or not vomit, when you tell someone God loves them when, for all you can know, He determined before they were born that He wasn't going to save them?

How is that love?

Limited atonement = limited salvation = limited good news = limited love...if it can even be called love.

You steal my point. I do not tell people God loves everyone. The only think I say in a universal sense, is that all men have sinned and live under a sentence of death.

But for the grace of God, there is no hope of freedom or life.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
You all can talk all you want about God's love for the lost but at least be honest -- you mean God's love only for the elect who He hasn't yet quickened unto faith.

Seriously, people, how do you keep a straight face, or not vomit, when you tell someone God loves them when, for all you can know, He determined before they were born that He wasn't going to save them?

How is that love?

Limited atonement = limited salvation = limited good news = limited love...if it can even be called love.

You steal my point. I do not tell people God loves everyone. The only thing I say in a universal sense, is that all men have sinned and live under a sentence of death.

But for the grace of God, there is no hope of freedom or life.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You steal my point. I do not tell people God loves everyone. The only thing I say in a universal sense, is that all men have sinned and live under a sentence of death.

But for the grace of God, there is no hope of freedom or life.

So grace is only good news for some, and the Gospel isn't good news at all. :nono:
 

Nanja

Well-known member
The biblical fact remains that, "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.


God never loved the world of the sons of the devil Mat. 13:38.

They were condemned already John 3:18, 36.

Everlasting fire is awaiting them Mat. 25:41!
 
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