How the Gospel Refutes Calvinism, Catholicism All Religions

[JudgeRightly]

That doesn't answer my question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

Yes

 

[Eagles Wings]

Now name calling? How Christian.

What?

You don't like being called a buffoon, fool, idiot, heretic, reprobate, unsaved, lying leprechaun?

Me neither, which is why I don't post much regarding doctrine anymore.

 

[Robert Pate]

We still sin, yes, but we are not "sinners." before we were saved, sinner described who we are. After we were saved, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Our nature is no longer that of sinner, but that of saint. We still sin, but that's not who we are.

Why did Paul refer to himself as the "Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Christ called people names when appropriate.

Indeed, God the Son. Or even an apostle was not shy to take another to task. Fortunately no one here ranks similarly and should avail themselves of the teachings behind the ninth commandment:

Spoiler

From the WLC...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?
A143: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other¹ and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.² We must come forward and stand up for the truth,³ speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,⁴ sincerely,⁵ freely,⁶ clearly,⁷ and without equivocation,⁸ not only in all matters relating to the law and justice⁹ but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.¹⁰ We must have a charitable regard for others,¹¹ loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation¹² as well as regretting¹³ and putting the best light on their failings.¹⁴ We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,¹⁵ defending their innocence,¹⁶ readily receiving a good report about them¹⁷ and reluctantly admitting a bad one.¹⁸ We should discourage gossips,¹⁹ flatterers,²⁰ and slanderers;²¹ we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;²² we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;²³ and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.²⁴


1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.


Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,¹ with special reference to legal matters in the courts.² We must not give untrue evidence,³ suborn perjury,⁴ knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.⁵ We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,⁶ call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.⁷ Forgery is forbidden,⁸ as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,⁹ and not taking it on ourselves to reprove¹⁰ or complain to others about some wrong.¹¹ We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,¹² or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,¹³ nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,¹⁴ into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.¹⁵ Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,¹⁶ as well as lying,¹⁷ slandering,¹⁸ backbiting,¹⁹ belittling,²⁰ gossiping,²¹ whispering,²² ridiculing,²³ reviling,²⁴ and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,²⁵ harsh,²⁶ or prejudiced;²⁷ misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;²⁸ flattery²⁹ and ostentatious boasting;³⁰ thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;³¹ denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;³² exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;³³ concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;³⁴ gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;³⁵ spreading false rumors,³⁶ receiving and approving evil reports,³⁷ and refusing to listen to a just defense;³⁸ harboring evil suspicions;³⁹ being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,⁴⁰ trying to discredit those honors,⁴¹ and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;⁴² scornful contempt⁴³ and foolish admiration;⁴⁴ breaking our lawful promises;⁴⁵ and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,⁴⁶ and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.⁴⁷


1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tm 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tm 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3^1.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tm 3.3.
46. 1 Sm2.24,2Sml2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Ephesians 2:8-9

The word "alone" is not there.

Yes, we are saved by faith and that is what the passage is saying.

But it does not say by "faith alone".

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Yes

Thank you for the straight answer. I do appreciate that.

Could you explain a little bit please?

Thanks.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The word "alone" is not there.

Yes, we are saved by faith and that is what the passage is saying.

But it does not say by "faith alone".

Peace.

Faith or works, is there any other way to be saved? If it's not of works, then it must be of faith. If not of faith, then works.

The word "alone" doesn't have to be there, because Paul expects us to have at least some knowledge of the context of what he's saying.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The Alternative to Faith Alone

The Alternative to Faith Alone

The alternative to faith alone, and clear evidence of what results when rejecting Sola Fide: http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj

Q.E.D.

:AMR:

AMR

 

[JudgeRightly]

Thank you for the straight answer. I do appreciate that.

Could you explain a little bit please?

Thanks.

Paul explains in Romans 2 (though not explicitly) that there are those that are "unsolicited," ie, those who have never heard of the gospel message, be that of the law, or of Christ's resurrection, or of saving grace, or even the Bible, who can come to know their Creator and receive eternal life after acknowledging He exists and that he wants to love Him, and understands to follow the law written in his heart.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Faith or works, is there any other way to be saved? If it's not of works, then it must be of faith. If not of faith, then works.

I disagree. You have set up a false dichotomy that the Bible never does. You are basically saying "it has be this or that". The Bible never says that.

The Bible shows us that faith and works are complementary. They go together. One without the other is dead.

The word "alone" doesn't have to be there, because Paul expects us to have at least some knowledge of the context of what he's saying.

I agree.

And if we continue the context from Ephesians 2:8-9 and include verse 10 we get:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So faith and works go together.

And I think when we look at Galatians 5:6 or 1 Corinthians 13 we can see that for Paul, what matters, is faith working through love. The same is true for the book of James.

So if "faith alone" includes things like love, repentance, forgiveness/forgiving, and belief...then yeah, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

The Bible shows us that faith and works are complementary. They go together. One without the other is dead.

Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord. Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works. Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill of works.

AMR

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Paul explains in Romans 2 (though not explicitly) that there are those that are "unsolicited," ie, those who have never heard of the gospel message, be that of the law, or of Christ's resurrection, or of saving grace, or even the Bible, who can come to know their Creator and receive eternal life after acknowledging He exists and that he wants to love Him, and understands to follow the law written in his heart.

Ok. Thanks for that. I can see what you are saying.

Although, the passages do seem to indicate that those who do not have explicit of the knowledge of God etc. still do by nature what the law contains (verses 14-15)so I'd have to look into that a little more.

What about for people who have heard the Gospel message? Can they be saved without having their sins forgiven?

Thanks.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord.

I disagree. It is a declaration but it is more than that. It is a process.

It was in the life of Abraham and it is in ours.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God and left his homeland (Genesis 12),
Abraham was justified when he believed God years later (Genesis 15),
Abraham was justified when he obeyed God again years after that when he was willing to offer Isaac (Genesis 22)

Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works.

Nobody that I know of has ever claimed to be justified by works alone.

Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill of works.

Mortal sin is biblical and there are plenty of passages in the Bible that warn against being cut off from Christ.

Peace.

 

[Zeke]

Indeed, God the Son. Or even an apostle was not shy to take another to task. Fortunately no one here ranks similarly and should avail themselves of the teachings behind the ninth commandment:

Spoiler

From the WLC...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?
A143: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other¹ and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.² We must come forward and stand up for the truth,³ speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,⁴ sincerely,⁵ freely,⁶ clearly,⁷ and without equivocation,⁸ not only in all matters relating to the law and justice⁹ but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.¹⁰ We must have a charitable regard for others,¹¹ loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation¹² as well as regretting¹³ and putting the best light on their failings.¹⁴ We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,¹⁵ defending their innocence,¹⁶ readily receiving a good report about them¹⁷ and reluctantly admitting a bad one.¹⁸ We should discourage gossips,¹⁹ flatterers,²⁰ and slanderers;²¹ we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;²² we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;²³ and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.²⁴


1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.


Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,¹ with special reference to legal matters in the courts.² We must not give untrue evidence,³ suborn perjury,⁴ knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.⁵ We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,⁶ call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.⁷ Forgery is forbidden,⁸ as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,⁹ and not taking it on ourselves to reprove¹⁰ or complain to others about some wrong.¹¹ We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,¹² or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,¹³ nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,¹⁴ into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.¹⁵ Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,¹⁶ as well as lying,¹⁷ slandering,¹⁸ backbiting,¹⁹ belittling,²⁰ gossiping,²¹ whispering,²² ridiculing,²³ reviling,²⁴ and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,²⁵ harsh,²⁶ or prejudiced;²⁷ misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;²⁸ flattery²⁹ and ostentatious boasting;³⁰ thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;³¹ denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;³² exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;³³ concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;³⁴ gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;³⁵ spreading false rumors,³⁶ receiving and approving evil reports,³⁷ and refusing to listen to a just defense;³⁸ harboring evil suspicions;³⁹ being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,⁴⁰ trying to discredit those honors,⁴¹ and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;⁴² scornful contempt⁴³ and foolish admiration;⁴⁴ breaking our lawful promises;⁴⁵ and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,⁴⁶ and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.⁴⁷


1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tm 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tm 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3^1.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tm 3.3.
46. 1 Sm2.24,2Sml2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

That's the kind of worldly dogma that looks into the future for an existing now, either Christ is in you or isn't, which equalizes the body instead of being base ego drivin with its fruit of man worship.

 

[Robert Pate]

We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Jesus Christ is our justifier. All that faith does is it makes the Gospel ours. There is no saving merit in faith. It was Jesus that fulfilled the law. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins. Jesus acting in our name and on our behalf is our justification, Romans 3:26.

 

[God's Truth]

We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Jesus Christ is our justifier. All that faith does is it makes the Gospel ours. There is no saving merit in faith. It was Jesus that fulfilled the law. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins. Jesus acting in our name and on our behalf is our justification, Romans 3:26.

Justified by faith alone means we have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

Jesus does the cleaning, we no longer have to. We no longer have to get circumcised and sacrifice animals, etc. We no longer have to do that to make ourselves clean or be separated and without Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord. Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works. Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill of works.

AMR

The Jews used to have to do the WORKS OF THE LAW.

The Jews had to do the works of the law to atone for their sins by using the blood of animals and doing other things called purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the works that no longer matter.

Paul was not saying we no longer have to obey God; Paul was explaining we don't have to get circumcised anymore and sacrifice animals.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Jews used to have to do the WORKS OF THE LAW.

The Jews had to do the works of the law to atone for their sins by using the blood of animals and doing other things called purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the works that no longer matter.

Paul was not saying we no longer have to obey God; Paul was explaining we don't have to get circumcised anymore and sacrifice animals.

What is the law? The law is anything in the Bible that tells you to do something or not to do something. The law is also spiritual it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. You like to water down the law and make it less than what it is. The law is also the nature and character of God. To be under the law is to be condemned by the law. Do you not hear the law? Galatians 4:21.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I don't consider Gt to be a sister in Christ.

It doesn't matter at all whether you consider jsanford108 to be a brother in Christ, since he is the one you judged to have never born of Christ.
It matters whether God considers jsanford108 to be in Christ.

You are very judgmental towards Christians like God's Truth and jsanford108 because they do not hold your heretical beliefs.

 

[genuineoriginal]

We still sin, yes, but we are not "sinners." before we were saved, sinner described who we are. After we were saved, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Our nature is no longer that of sinner, but that of saint. We still sin, but that's not who we are.

A murderer is a person that murders.
A sinner is a person that sins.

You say you still sin, so that makes you a sinner by definition.

The Bible speaks about the difference between what the righteous do when they sin and what the unrighteous do:

Proverbs 24:16 16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.​

No matter how many times a righteous person falls into sin, he will get back up and start living a life of righteousness again.
When the unrighteous falls into sin, he will stay there and revel in it.