How the Gospel Refutes All Religions and Reconciles Us to God

beloved57

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Amr

The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as shown from the summary of Scripture in the WCF:

False statement, the elect are reconciled to God by Christ death while they are enemies Rom 5:10. So they're never under Gods condemnation. The merits of Christ death was applied to them while they were enemies and unbelievers hating God, else they could not have been reconciled to God while being enemies.
 

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Amr

False statement, the elect are reconciled to God by Christ death while they are enemies Rom 5:10. So they're never under Gods condemnation. The merits of Christ death was applied to them while they were enemies and unbelievers hating God, else they could not have been reconciled to God while being enemies.
Your hyper-Calvinism's eternal justification of the elect is an abomination that eviscerates justification by faith.

(1) While they were going about to establish a righteousness of their own and bringing forth dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death, they were pleasing to God.
(2) A justified person can commit sins such as believing and confessing a false gospel.
(3) They had the imputed righteousness of Christ while remaining ignorant of that imputed righteousness.
(4) Without faith it is possible to please God, and some who are in the flesh are able to please God.
(5) When they were dead in trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, conducting themselves according to the lusts of their flesh, acting out the things, the wills of the flesh and of the understandings, they were not children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3).
(6) There are some who are redeemed, who are God-pleasers, who are friends of God, who also walk as the rest of the nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, having been darkened in the intellect, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them because of the hardness of their heart, who, having cast off all feeling, gave themselves up to lust, to the working of all uncleanness with greediness (Ephesians 4:17-19).

AMR
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Your hyper-Calvinism's eternal justification of the elect is an abomination that eviscerates justification by faith.

(1) While they were going about to establish a righteousness of their own and bringing forth dead works, evil deeds, and fruit unto death, they were pleasing to God.
(2) A justified person can commit sins such as believing and confessing a false gospel.
(3) They had the imputed righteousness of Christ while remaining ignorant of that imputed righteousness.
(4) Without faith it is possible to please God, and some who are in the flesh are able to please God.
(5) When they were dead in trespasses and sins, walking according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, conducting themselves according to the lusts of their flesh, acting out the things, the wills of the flesh and of the understandings, they were not children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3).
(6) There are some who are redeemed, who are God-pleasers, who are friends of God, who also walk as the rest of the nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, having been darkened in the intellect, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them because of the hardness of their heart, who, having cast off all feeling, gave themselves up to lust, to the working of all uncleanness with greediness (Ephesians 4:17-19).

AMR

So I see you just ignored Rom 5:10 ! Well ignore also Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Those Christ died for, are born into this world already dead to the law and its condemnation. How ? Not by anything the Spirit did, but by the Body of Christ, which signify s His death.. So they arent born into this world already condemned. You follow the doctrines of men, not God !
 

Robert Pate

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You continue to evade a simple question. What was so unique about your ability to make choices that your neighbor could not do the same? In other words, why did you choose wisely and your neighbor did not?

I was quickened by the Holy Spirit, such that I would actually have spirtual ears to hear the Good News. Prior to that quickening, how could I have actually done so (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14)?

No person can be thoroughly humbled until he or she knows that their salvation is utterly beyond their own powers, devices, endeavors, will, and works, and depends entirely on the choice, will, and work of another, namely, of God alone.

AMR

The doctrine that you were saved before you were saved is ridiculous and unscriptural.

The fact that you have chosen Calvinism as your religion, or did God make that choice for you? Blows the idea of predestination completely.

And just what was it that God saw in you that made him say... "I want that one?"
 

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So I see you just ignored Rom 5:10 !
I did not ignore it. I just see it for what it actually means, not the way your abuse the passage. Explaining the preceding verse, Paul teaches us that as God hates sin, we are also hated by Him his far as we are sinners; but as in God's secret counsel He chooses us into the body of Christ, He ceases to hate us: but restoration to favor is unknown to us, until we attain it by faith. Hence with regard to us, we are always enemies, until the death of Christ interposes in order to propitiate God.

Romans 7:4 does not help you, either. It has nothing to do with your eternal justification nonsense.

Hypers spend too much time trying to sneak behind the curtain and peer at the workings of the secret things of God. Thinking they know what is not revealed to them (Deut. 29:29), they then go off crafting heretical doctrines using Gnostic foundations.

AMR
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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The doctrine that you were saved before you were saved is ridiculous and unscriptural.
When are you going to actually answer the question instead of just stating opinions?

What was so unique about your ability to make choices that your neighbor could not do the same? In other words, why did you choose wisely and your neighbor did not?

“You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say, but you never heard an Arminian prayer—for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free will; there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.” That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that.” --(Spurgeon)

AMR
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
When are you going to actually answer the question instead of just stating opinions?

What was so unique about your ability to make choices that your neighbor could not do the same? In other words, why did you choose wisely and your neighbor did not?

AMR

Everyone has the ability to make choices. Why do you embrace Calvinism and I don't? Why does the Bible say..."Choose this day whom you will serve?" God did not create robots, nor does he impose salvation on people that do not honor his Son Jesus Christ by believing on him.

Do you really believe that the only way that God can have a people for himself is to make them believe?
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Those Christ died for, are born into this world already dead to the law and its condemnation.


No human born from Adam, is "dead to the Law."

So they arent born into this world already condemned.

By so saying, you deny the doctrine of "Total Depravity" that is premised on the Federal Headship of the first Adam, who in his being, represented the entire human race. When Adam sinned, the penalty of his disobedience was legally imputed to all his biological offspring.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
amr

[FONT=&quot]I did not ignore it. [/FONT]

Yes you have. You discredit the accomplishment of the Cross before Gods Law and Justice. Them Christ died for are reconciled to God, put into a right relationship with Him, while they are yet enemies Eph 2:1-3. Thats because solely on the basis of the Cross, nothing else ! And you deny it, and falsely teach that those Christ died for, are born into the world as condemned ! Thats totally showing disrespect for the Cross !
 

beloved57

Well-known member
pate

Everyone has the ability to make choices

Not any that pleases God. Those in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:7-8

Do you really believe that the only way that God can have a people for himself is to make them believe?

Where you get that from ? Men cant believe until they are born again, they that are in the flesh cant please God Rom 8:8, and Faith/Believing pleases God Heb 11:6
 

beloved57

Well-known member
nang

No human born from Adam, is "dead to the Law."

Then you deny the scripture. Those Christ died for are dead to the law by His Body, meaning His death Rom 7:4

Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

By so saying, you deny the doctrine of "Total Depravity"

That shows your spiritual ignorance, excuse the expression, but thats what it is. Thats not denying total depravity, its denying that ones Christ died for are condemned for it. All the depravity the elect manifest and commit has been forgiven by God because of Christs death, none of their sins can be imputed too them before God 2 Cor 5:19 ;Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 

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Everyone has the ability to make choices.

Why do you continue to avoid the question? I am not asking about your ability to choose.

[FONT=&quot]What was so unique about
your ability[FONT=&quot] to make choices that your neighbor could not do the same? In other words, why did you choose wisely and your neighbor did not?

[/FONT]
AMR[/FONT]
 

Ben Masada

New member
How the gospel refutes all religions and reconciles us to God?

How the gospel refutes all religions and reconciles us to God?

How the gospel refutes all religions and reconciles us to God?

It depends on the gospel you are talking about. The gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach or the gospel of Paul aka the NT. Jesus had the right answer to that question above in Luke 16:29-31 when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Then Prophet Isaiah, according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, said that to set things right with God, so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)
 

beloved57

Well-known member
How the gospel refutes all religions and reconciles us to God?

It depends on the gospel you are talking about. The gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach or the gospel of Paul aka the NT. Jesus had the right answer to that question above in Luke 16:29-31 when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Then Prophet Isaiah, according to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach, said that to set things right with God, so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)

Repent and turn to golden calf worship!
 

Ben Masada

New member
Repent and turn to golden calf worship!

Don't you have any idea how much credibility you lose by vandalizing the posts of other people with this nonsense of yours? That's why I gave you a long ignoring time and, when I think about giving you a chance,
I see you haven't changed a bit. Pity!
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Don't you have any idea how much credibility you lose by vandalizing the posts of other people with this nonsense of yours? That's why I gave you a long ignoring time and, when I think about giving you a chance,
I see you haven't changed a bit. Pity!

Nonsense ? You telling me that the jews didnt worship a golden calf as God ?
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Yep, that is what I believe . . For if God, by His grace, did not enable many elect sinners to believe, none of them ever would.

I did and I know of many others that came to Christ by their own free will. How do you explain that?

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ. They hear, they believe, and they are born again, just like on the day of Pentecost. 8,000 Jews were saved by hearing Peter's Gospel. Some of them had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36.
 

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Why do you continue to avoid the question? I am not asking about your ability to choose.

[FONT="]What was so unique about [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][U]your ability[/U][COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#333333][FONT="] to make choices that your neighbor could not do the same? In other words, why did you choose wisely and your neighbor did not?

AMR[/FONT]


My neighbor loved his sins more than he loved Christ. He heard the Gospel and rejected the call of the Holy Spirit to come to Christ. I heard the same Gospel and by my own free will accepted Christ as my savior. Hebrews 4:2.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Indeed, I was, as are all before their re-birth (Eph. 2:1-5). I do know where you are headed here, and it would be more effective to just lay out your entire agenda than just resorting to playing twenty questions, as it were. ;)

The elect are under the same condemnation until the application of Christ's person and work by virtue of the Holy Spirit's work, as shown from the summary of Scripture in the WCF:

WCF 11:4 God did, from all eternity, decree to justify all the elect, (Gal. 3:8, 1 Pet. 1:2, 19-20, Rom. 8:30) and Christ did, in the fulness of time, die for their sins, and rise for their justification: (Gal. 4:4, 1 Tim. 2:6, Rom. 4:25) nevertheless, they are not justified, until the Holy Spirit doth, in due time, actually apply Christ unto them (Col. 1:21-22, Gal. 2:16, Tit. 3:4-7).​

Much confusion by the anti-Calvinist arises on the matter of election. Until justified, the elect are under condemnation. In other words, there is a difference between saying that "election is salvation" (the anti-Calvinist's erroneous understanding) and "election is unto salvation" (the Calvinist's proper understanding). The historic Reformed position is that election is unto salvation. God decrees to save the elect in eternity, but their salvation is accomplished and applied in time, before which time (as Eph 2 makes clear) they are "by nature children of wrath, just as the others." This view stands in direct opposition to the Hyper-Calvinist's view of eternal justification.

As Calvin explains:

Spoiler

Therefore all of us, who have descended from impure seed, are born infected with the contagion of sin. In fact, before we saw the light of this life we were soiled and spotted in God´s sight.
- Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 1, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book II.1.5, p. 248.


10. The Elect before their call. There is no "seed of election." The elect are gathered into Christ´s flock by a call not immediately at birth, and not all at the same time, but according as it pleases God to dispense his grace to them. But before they are gathered unto that supreme Shepherd, they wander scattered in the wilderness common to all; and they do not differ at all from others except that they are protected by God´s especial mercy from rushing headlong into the final ruin of death. If you look upon them, you will see Adam´s offspring, who savor of the common corruption of the mass. The fact that they are not carried to utter and even desperate impiety is not due to any innate goodness of theirs but because the eye of God watches over their safety and his hand is outstretched to them!

For those who imagine that some sort of seed of election was sown in them from birth itself, and that by its power they have always been inclined to piety and the fear of God, are not supported by Scriptural authority and are refuted by experience itself. They put forward a few examples by which to prove that the elect even before illumination were not strangers to religion: Paul lived a blameless life as a Pharisee [Philippians 3:5-6]; Cornelius, with alms and prayers, was acceptable to God [Acts 10:2], and the like, if any. As for Paul, we grant them their point; in Cornelius, we say they are deceived.

For it appears that he was then already enlightened and regenerated, so that he lacked nothing but a clear revelation of the gospel. But what will they wring out of these few examples? That all the elect are always endowed with the spirit of piety? No more than if someone by showing the uprightness of Aristides, Socrates, Xenocrates, Scipio, Curius, Camillus, and others infers from it that all who are forsaken in the darkness of idolatry were earnest seekers of holiness and purity. Indeed, Scripture openly disclaims them in more than one place.

This state before regeneration described by Paul in his letter to the Ephesians shows no grain of this seed. "You were dead," he says, "through the trespasses and sins in which you... walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the air, who is now at work in his disobedient sons. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of the flesh and of the mind. So we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest." [Ephesians 2:1-3, abbr.]

Again: "Remember that... you were once without hope, and lacking God in the world." [Ephesians 2:12]
Likewise: "You were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light." [Ephesians 5:8-9.]


But they would perhaps like this to be referred to ignorance of the true God in which, as they do not deny, the elect are held before they are called. Yet this would be shameless calumny, since he draws the inference that they ought no longer to lie [Ephesians 4:25] or steal [Ephesians 4:28]. But what answer will they make to the other passages? Such as that in the letter to the Corinthians, where, after declaring that "neither fornicators nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor the greedy, will inherit the Kingdom of God" [1 Corinthians 6:9-10], he immediately adds that they were guilty of those very transgressions before they knew Christ but are now washed with his blood and freed by the Spirit [1 Corinthians 9:11]. Likewise, another passage, in the letter to the Romans: "Just as you... yielded your members as slaves to impurity and to greater iniquity upon iniquity, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness" [1 Corinthians 6:19, cf. Vg.]. "For what fruit did you get from those things at which you now rightly blush?" [1 Corinthians 6:21 p.].
- Institutes of the Christian Religion, Vol. 2, ed. John T. McNeill and trans. Ford Lewis Battles, (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, reprinted 1977), Book III.24.10, pp. 976-977.


The above is why Reformed theology and the doctrine of election is not a hindrance to evangelism, but rather a spur. In plain words: "you go fishin' where you know there are fish." The doctrine of election does not mean that men do not need the gospel, rather the doctrine of election is God's way of telling us that He has already paved the way for us to bring the gospel.

Also, before some objection about the impassibility of God is raised, the classic explanation is that God does not change His will, God wills the change.
Accordingly, we see that God willed to change the status of elect sinners in relation to Himself; He did not change His will in relation to sinners.

It was the unchanging love of God towards the elect which appointed and provided the atonement as the means by which sinners would be reconciled to God. There is no change in God towards the elect; the elect are changed in relation to God.

When God views you "in Christ," all the Trinitarian divine love flows to you by virtue of your union with the Son. When God views you "in Adam," all the wrath of God against sin is directed toward you in rebellion, without any mitigation. The wrath of God due to his elect for their sin is poured out upon the Son in their place. Covenant and Election matter. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

However, if the atonement is universalized—as do those denying particular atonement—and made something less than definite, it is difficult to maintain the unchangeability of God. Here the atonement has come to be interpreted as something which has made sinners savable to God, and therefore the only logical conclusion from such a view is that God Himself must have undergone some kind of change as a result of this indefinite atonement.

AMR

I know you knew where I was headed: one of the places Reformed thought provides no logical answer.

If you were elect from eternity past (a big assumption in itself since no one can say with 100% certainty), then you were not unsaved -- in the sense of at risk of damnation -- before you believed.
 
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