ECT How is Paul's message different?

[Right Divider]

I'm the one who has made it clear that there were more than one mystery.

I have asked you to show us the mysteries, so that we can see which mysteries you claim were first revealed to Paul.

So, please list which mysteries you think were first revealed to Paul and no one else before Paul?

I wasn't saying that you said that there was only one.

I was simply saying that you are stupid to believe that there is no way that Paul could be given SOME of the mysteries FIRST.

Paul did not KEEP these mysteries a secret either.

What, EXACTLY, excludes God from giving SOME mysteries to Paul FIRST?

 

[musterion]

What, EXACTLY, excludes God from giving SOME mysteries to Paul FIRST?

Like every other false view in Christendom, preterism cannot function without Paul's body of doctrine being completely homogenized with that of the circumcision apostles. That lets (in their minds) the Body of Christ = Israel. That in turn (this is the real point) allows Christians to claim that which was solely Israel's at the expense of denying much of what's true about, and even granted to, the BoC.

Example: Some on this very thread who deny the finished work of Christ, in exchange for saying they are members of some vague, undescribed priesthood.

Example: the majority of TOL users who detest even the idea of unconditional eternal security in Christ and who deny we are not appointed to wrath, openly preferring the threat of the Lake of Fire if they don't do a good enough job obeying God.

Example: Ignoring or denying the Christ Who spoke from glory, in favor of Christ after the flesh Who (you'd think) wrote in red ink.

It always comes down to Gentiles under grace lusting after what was Israel's under the Law. Worldly and carnal (fleshly) vs spiritual and heavenly.

They don't want grace. Grace is scary, somehow. You have to walk by the Spirit under grace; most of them don't have the Spirit, is my guess.

They want Law. Law is comforting, somehow. Familiar. You can work like a dog under Law, try to impress God and outdo the other guy.

Problem is, Paul, more than any other apostle, gets in the way of ALL that. He denies it to them.

That's why they have no real use for Paul, or hate him as Meshak admits to doing (but no way is she alone in that). That's as near as I can figure it.

 

[Interplanner]

Like every other false view in Christendom, preterism cannot function without Paul's body of doctrine being completely homogenized with that of the circumcision apostles. That lets (in their minds) the Body of Christ = Israel. That in turn (this is the real point) allows Christians to claim that which was solely Israel's at the expense of denying much of what's true about, and even granted to, the BoC.

Example: Some on this very thread who deny the finished work of Christ, in exchange for saying they are members of some vague, undescribed priesthood.

Example: the majority of TOL users who detest even the idea of unconditional eternal security in Christ and who deny we are not appointed to wrath, openly preferring the threat of the Lake of Fire if they don't do a good enough job obeying God.

Example: Ignoring or denying the Christ Who spoke from glory, in favor of Christ after the flesh Who (you'd think) wrote in red ink.

It always comes down to Gentiles under grace lusting after what was Israel's under the Law. Worldly and carnal (fleshly) vs spiritual and heavenly.

They don't want grace. Grace is scary, somehow. You have to walk by the Spirit under grace; most of them don't have the Spirit, is my guess.

They want Law. Law is comforting, somehow. Familiar. You can work like a dog under Law, try to impress God and outdo the other guy.

Problem is, Paul, more than any other apostle, gets in the way of ALL that. He denies it to them.

That's why they have no real use for Paul, or hate him as Meshak admits to doing (but no way is she alone in that). That's as near as I can figure it.

Sorry, but the opening line here is worthless. Do you have any examples of a preterist who is so comfortable with the 'circumcision' group?

 

[tetelestai]

That in turn (this is the real point) allows Christians to claim that which was solely Israel's at the expense of denying much of what's true about, and even granted to, the BoC.

There's no denying anything. Jew and Gentile are one new man in Christ Jesus, the Israel of God, the true children of Abraham.

Paul said the Gentiles owed it to the Jews to share their material blessings because the Gentiles shared in the Jew's spiritual blessings.

(Rom 15:27) They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Please explain what these Jewish "spiritual blessings" where that the Gentiles shared with them?

 

[Clete]

Clete, cmon you know Holy Spirit was working; the body of Christ was growing before Paul was converted.

The Holy Spirit was certainly working but the Body of Christ did not exist prior to Paul who was it's charter member.

How did anyone receive the Holy Spirit before Paul's ministry? The only way possible, by the blood of Christ, by reconciliation done by the forgivesnees of sins through Jesus.

David received the Holy Spirit a thousand years before Calvary.

Further, the blood of Christ is the foundation for all salvation, regardless of which dispensation you happen to live in. This does not mean that there are no dispensations or that they are all identical.

Paul was given great gifts and was tasked with using them to explain the deep theological underpinnings of the Gospel to explain 'the way' in an in-depth manner.

I know that! The question wasn't WHAT was Paul's ministry, the question was WHY Paul's ministry?

Are you telling me that Paul did something that the twelve could not accomplish?

No! I'm telling you that! The reason God turned to Paul is because He cut Israel off, ending the Kingdom Dispensation and began the Dispensation of Grace. The Twelve being saved under law remained under the law and ministered to those saved under the law. (Romans 11:29; I Corinthians 7:18)

He was given places to go to share the Gospel with the Gentiles just as other apostales went to other Gentile locations For their ministry work given to them by God.

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

Why did God choose to reveal Himself to Paul in a special way? You'll have to ask Him. He is still doing this now to some extent.

No, you don't understand. I know the answer to the question. It is you who cannot answer the question. You cannot answer it because it is in conflict with your dogma. There can be no answer if God did not change anything. If Paul's message was/is the same as Peter's then there is no need for Paul in the first place! God already had twelve apostles He did not need a thirteenth - UNLESS something changed!

Many Muslims have reported turning to Jesus after visions.

All such reports are lies.
We know from the biblical record that when people are witnesses to undeniable miracles the vast majority of the time the result is that the witnesses hate God more than they did before they saw the miracle.

My thought is God's response to Jesus telling us to pray for God to send workers, and prayers thus sent and answered.

Nice thought but has no basis in either evidence or scripture.

Why did Paul call it his Gospel? He also called it the Gospel of God, Gospel of Christ ect... My thought is that Paul was very much into mentorship and passing on the truth, and in that phrase He was proclaiming what He was given and what He was passing on.

No, no no! It wasn't just a pet name he was giving it. He was making an intentional (a Holy Spirit inspired) effort to distinguish his message from any other....

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

16b I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)​

That verse 20 is real killer for your position. Paul was not just calling it "my gospel" in passing. He was virtually jumping up and down insisting that he was not lying about this! He was insisting that he wasn't taught his gospel and he did not get it from the twelve or from any other human being other than the resurrected Jesus Christ Himself via direct revelation.

Now why would such a thing be necessary if Paul's message is the same as Peter's??????

The answer is, it wouldn't be! Not only would it not be necessary it wouldn't even make any sense.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Right Divider]

There's no denying anything. Jew and Gentile are one new man in Christ Jesus, the Israel of God, the true children of Abraham.

Paul said the Gentiles owed it to the Jews to share their material blessings because the Gentiles shared in the Jew's spiritual blessings.

(Rom 15:27) They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Please explain what these Jewish "spiritual blessings" where that the Gentiles shared with them?

Forgiveness of sins by the death/blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[tetelestai]

Forgiveness of sins by the death/blood of Jesus Christ.

How does that not prove that the Gentiles became fellow heirs with Israel?

 

[turbosixx]

Example: Some on this very thread who deny the finished work of Christ, in exchange for saying they are members of some vague, undescribed priesthood.

I know of no scripture that speaks of the "finished work of Christ". Not in scripture, must be from man.

 

[tetelestai]

the Body of Christ did not exist prior to Paul who was it's charter member.

100% Wrong.

First off, the "body" is simply a metaphor to describe the church, or believers in Christ.

Just because Paul was the first to use "body" as a metaphor, it does not mean Paul was the first person in the "body".

Paul also used a "building" metaphor that had Christ Jesus as the cornerstone, the Apostles as the foundation, and each believer as a stone in the building.

Are you going to claim that Paul was the charter member of the "building"?

Christ Jesus isn't literally the "head" of the church (body) anymore than He is literally a cornerstone of a building.

You Dispensationalists obsess with the "body" metaphor, while completely ignoring the "building" metaphor.

Paul made it crystal clear that there were others "in Christ" before he was.

 

[tetelestai]

I know of no scripture that speaks of the "finished work of Christ". Not in scripture, must be from man.

Yep.

Dispensationalists have their own words and phrases.

 

[Danoh]

Excellent post #965, Clete - every word.

 

[Danoh]

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[tetelestai]

David received the Holy Spirit a thousand years before Calvary.

Not permanently like we do in the New Covenant today.

David begged God not to take the Holy Spirit from him.

(Psalm 51:11) Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[turbosixx]

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Thanks for the verses.

If his work was finished in ch. 17, he couldn't possibly be speaking of his DBR.

If we look at the context of Jn. 19:30 his taking of the wine was to fulfill scripture.
Jn. 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."
Everything else had been accomplished , maybe he finished fulfilling scripture.
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!"


Where does anyone after the DBR speak of it? Does Paul speak of it? I hear it all the time so it must be in there.

 

[Danoh]

Thanks for the verses.

If his work was finished in ch. 17, he couldn't possibly be speaking of his DBR.

If we look at the context of Jn. 19:30 his taking of the wine was to fulfill scripture.
Jn. 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty."
Everything else had been accomplished , maybe he finished fulfilling scripture.
30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!"


Where does anyone after the DBR speak of it? Does Paul speak of it? I hear it all the time so it must be in there.

You went from a supposedly open mind to mind reading and being a smart aleck.

I'm afraid you'll have to bait someone else.

You asked a question, it was answered, you assumed what you assumed, built on your resulting straw man and are now back for more of this game you are now playing.

If you are serious then it is on you to seek out the passage you seek.

That is what anyone who eventually embraced Mid-Acts that I have asked has related - they were honest with their looking into the issues.

The best to you in that, as you are in your own way....

 

[turbosixx]

You went from a supposedly open mind to mind reading and being a smart aleck.

Not my intention.

 

[turbosixx]

If this dispensation of grace, A9D, is founded on the “finished work of Christ” then where does Paul speak of it?

If you are serious then it is on you to seek out the passage you seek.

I can't find what's not there.

Oh, and still looking for the prayer of salvation.

 

[Clete]

If this dispensation of grace, A9D, is founded on the “finished work of Christ” then where does Paul speak of it?



I can't find what's not there.

Oh, and still looking for the prayer of salvation.

I don't think I understand the question. Are you suggesting that you don't believe that Paul's message (i.e. salvation by grace) is not based on Calvary? That certainly is not a distinctive of Acts 9 Dispensationalism and simple word search yields lost of verses where Paul talks about our having been crucified with Christ. Where else was Christ crucified besides at Calvary?

Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.​

That single passage alone is the gospel of grace in a single sentence!

How does that not answer your question? (I think it might have taken me 10 seconds to find that verse, by the way. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it wasn't hidden or difficult to find.)

There are many other passages like it...

1 Corinthians 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

2 Corinthians 13:4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Philippians 3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​

I hope that answers your question.


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Right Divider]

How does that not prove that the Gentiles became fellow heirs with Israel?

Gentiles did not become fellow heirs with Israel.

 

[Right Divider]

100% Wrong.

First off, the "body" is simply a metaphor to describe the church, or believers in Christ.

Just because Paul was the first to use "body" as a metaphor, it does not mean Paul was the first person in the "body".

Paul also used a "building" metaphor that had Christ Jesus as the cornerstone, the Apostles as the foundation, and each believer as a stone in the building.

Are you going to claim that Paul was the charter member of the "building"?

Christ Jesus isn't literally the "head" of the church (body) anymore than He is literally a cornerstone of a building.

You Dispensationalists obsess with the "body" metaphor, while completely ignoring the "building" metaphor.

Paul made it crystal clear that there were others "in Christ" before he was.

What a poor confused demon you are.

I guess that it partially due to that "dictionary theology" of yours.