Interplanner
Well-known member
Boyce is speaking on this topic right now:
http://saleminteractivemedia.com/ListenLive/Player/KGNWAM
http://saleminteractivemedia.com/ListenLive/Player/KGNWAM
ECT How is Paul's message different?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Consider that you have turned what Clete said about meaning into a "one size fits all" in every instance, across the board.
So, its not surprising that those praising your above post are doing so - their every post shares in this same tendency to "one size fit all" any word, phrase, etc., that even remotely appears the same as a word, phrase, etc., found elsewhere in Scripture.
Citing similarities between two things does not even count as an argument that they are the same thing. You've effectively argued that because the White House has an East Wing and a West Wing and faces north that it must be a migrating duck, or that oranges and apples are the same thing because they both grow on trees and have seeds inside. No one has ever suggested that the two gospels were completely different and unrelated to one another. The fact is, they have at least as many things in common as they have differences.
Maybe I just am not very good at persuading people on this issue but I am all but ready to declare that the power of a theological paradigm is utterly insurmountable in adults. After all this time, you've cited some passages that show details that both gospels share in common and yet others that are in fact evidence of Acts 9 Dispensationalism and presented them all as proof that there is no evidence for Acts 9 Dispensationalism! I've spent that last two months showing you evidence.
I could be wrong, and hope I am actually but I really doubt that there is anything that could convince you, short of God Himself coming in person to tell you that A9D is the truth. And unless you were certain it was God Himself saying it, you'd have an instinct to buck even at that, fearing that this Angelic being is teaching you something contrary to scripture.
The tragic part is that much, if not most of the works you perform in your attempt to be a Messianic Jew (in essence if not in fact), which would otherwise have earned you rewards on judgment day, will all be burned up as works of your flesh. Oh the loss! Our doctrine has real consequences, both in this life and in the next. Not that I am attempting to convince you based on a fear of loss. One must be convinced of the truth in his own mind with sober rational judgment. I have failed to convince you but I have not failed to defend the truth as I see it and in doing so I've planted a seed that may yet bear fruit.
God bless you and thank you for what has been the most substantive discussion I've had on this forum in years!
Resting in Him,
Clete
I basically have to agree with Clete's response - the principle violated is on post #17, of the following thread:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4605058&posted=1#post4605058
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4605058&posted=1#post4605058
Interplanner
Well-known member
The humanly identifiable starting point of a dispensation is not what matters. What matters is when the misapplication of the Law (Gal 3:17) was supposed to end. Well, it was supposed to end immediately, but it didn't. It was never supposed to be there--that notion that humans can make God obligated or indebted, Rom 11. Judaism forged on, feeling especially strict after the captivity, as we can see from the trajectories of Nehemiah and Ezra. The mistake continued to "end" in the Prophets, but it was not always understood.
The announcement that the Lamb of God had come had major backstory to it. So the dispensation of the Gospel didn't "start" with the first NT declaration; it started before it started.
So is there something urgent and decisive about the generation of Christ and how they are supposed to set aside that approach to the Law? Yes!!! It is eschatologically urgent that they do so because at risk is the loss of a generation of Israel to an awful destruction under misguided and foul men. All the while God wanted them to be missionaries to the world before the day of wrath which was expected right after the decimation of Jerusalem.
I hope you can see from this that there is no chapter in Acts when grace started. It has a special urgency in the generation following Christ, yes, but it was a message hidden (to Judaism) since the beginning. Why "to Judaism"? Because they replaced grace with the Law, says Gal 3:17, and that's what Paul was sent to clear up once and for all.
turbosixx
New member
I’ve really enjoyed our healthy debate and I really appreciate your graciousness. It’s something not often seen on this forum. I believe it's in keeping with how a Christian should act and I commend you for it.
24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,
I have a lot of problems with A9D but yes the seed has been planted. It will grow if God gives the increase. I hope I’ve planted the seed of not trusting things written by man and let the bible do the talking. There are many who can defend their man-made religions and do it using scripture but through the lens of what they have been taught by man.
I will always look forward to your posts.
Cross Reference
New member
Religion?? This forum is all about "Religion" and Religious ideas about Religion.
turbosixx
New member
Yep, but they all can't be right.
turbosixx
New member
They don't even have to be remotely the same to be the same.
56 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Are they the same person?
We're talking the need for the minutest of distinctions between Prophecy (Israel) and Mystery (the Body).
Study out what Israel's Prophets wrote about what it means when the Lord stands up, is standing, or arises up - just Stephen saw Him; standing.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The body isn't the mystery. The mystery is that the Gospel is how the nations would be included in the blessed group called Israel. The Law would not be how. That was a mystery to Judaism.
Right Divider
Body part
That is a very silly story.
The fact that there is such a thing as "the Mystery" is proof of a change in message.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.
Purpose of the Mystery
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Purpose of the Mystery
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
Resting in Him,
Clete
That is certainly one thing that was hidden. It was hidden in scripture that Jesus would die for the sin of the world. It was also hidden in God that gentiles would come to God through the fall of Israel rather than her blessing.
Christ Jesus was the first to preach the mystery kept secret since the foundation of the world, not Paul:
(Matt 13:35 KJV) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
No you have not convinced us to ignore scripture and Paul.
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." Galatians 5:6
"...the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life." Galatians 6:8
"The mystery is that Gentiles are fellow heirs partakers of the same body." Ephesians 3:6
The body of Christ is Spiritual; connected Spiritually through Jesus blood and the Holy Spirit.
Paul painstakingly explains in Romans no one is reconciled to God and joined with His Spirit other than by the blood of Jesus which gives forgiveness of sins and reconciliation between us and God. This cleansing allows us to be joined with His Spirit and the Spiritual Body of Christ. This Grace is bestowed upon everyone and anyone Jew or Gentile who is truly Spiritually connected to His Body through faith/trust in Him.
None of which I've contradicted in the slightest and virtually all of which was not true prior to Paul's ministry!
The question (well one question) that you can't answer is why Paul needed to come on the seen at all. If God hadn't changed anything and the gospel message was identical after Paul as it was before Paul then why is Paul needed at all? All Twelve of the other Apostles had been indwelt by the Holy Spirit and they had been given the great commission by God the Son to go throughout the whole world (not just Israel) preaching the gospel. Where's the deficiency that caused any need whatsoever to add a thirteenth Apostle? Why doesn't New Jerusalem have thirteen foundations instead of twelve (Revelation 21:14)? Why did Paul repeatedly call it "my gospel" and claim to have not been taught the gospel but that he received it by revelation? WHY PAUL?
Resting in Him,
Clete
As though the mystery of the gospel of grace is the only secret thing in the universe that Jesus could have uttered.
Besides, Paul received his gospel by revelation. If Jesus had already spilled this particular jar of beans, the Holy Spirit could hardly have inspired Paul to write down that it had been kept secret up until that point.
Not to mention that fact that, once again, if Jesus had already spilled the grace mystery beans prior to Paul then where in the world is the need for a thirteenth Apostle?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Clete, cmon you know Holy Spirit was working; the body of Christ was growing before Paul was converted.
How did anyone receive the Holy Spirit before Paul's ministry? The only way possible, by the blood of Christ, by reconciliation done by the forgivesnees of sins through Jesus.
Paul was given great gifts and was tasked with using them to explain the deep theological underpinnings of the Gospel to explain 'the way' in an in-depth manner.
He was given places to go to share the Gospel with the Gentiles just as other apostales went to other Gentile locations For their ministry work given to them by God.
Why did God choose to reveal Himself to Paul in a special way? You'll have to ask Him. He is still doing this now to some extent.
Many Muslims have reported turning to Jesus after visions. My thought is God's response to Jesus telling us to pray for God to send workers, and prayers thus sent and answered.
Why did Paul call it his Gospel? He also called it the Gospel of God, Gospel of Christ ect... My thought is that Paul was very much into mentorship and passing on the truth, and in that phrase He was proclaiming what He was given and what He was passing on.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God's grace was a mystery kept hidden since the foundation of the world.
It doesn't say it was kept secret until Paul.
Paul said the following:
(Rom 16:25 KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
"and the preaching of Jesus Christ" means one of two things.
1) Paul himself was preaching about Jesus Christ.
2) The preaching that Jesus Christ Himself did prior to the D,B,R.
Christ Jesus "spilled the grace mystery beans" in the form of parables before Paul.
Christ Jesus told His Disciples that they were to know the mysteries of the kingdom.
(Matt 13:11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Paul confirmed this:
(1 Cor 4:1) This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.
Notice in the above, Paul says the mysteries were entrusted to "us", not "me".
Paul also confirmed that a mystery was preached before the cross:
(1 Cor 2:7-8) No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
In the above, Paul makes it clear that a mystery was revealed to those who crucified Christ, but they didn't understand it, because if they would have understood the mystery, they wouldn't have crucified Him.
Paul wrote about and explained different mysteries in his epistles, but nowhere does Paul say he was the first person and/or only person given these mysteries.
In fact, Paul says the opposite. Paul tells us of mysteries preached before him, and Paul uses plural pronouns when speaking of mysteries given.