How did His sheep get lost?
- Thread starter ttruscott
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ttruscott
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Are not the wicked nations lost, those who turn their back on HIM, forgetting HIM and who return to Sheol on their death? Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. And does not Peter refer to new converts as sheep in 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. equating sheep with sheep, Jews with gentile converts, as one, ie the elect of GOD called by different names of Jew and Christian?
What Is this Paul onlyism here??
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Oh... the classic false accusation. We are NOT "Paul only". But we do understand that we are supposed to follow Paul as he follows Christ...
... and NOT as Peter and the Israelite's followed Christ.
Until you come to believe this truth, you will continue to have confusion.
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@ttruscott
I guess that from your emoji I can see that you do not like to allow scripture to speak to you.
I guess that from your emoji I can see that you do not like to allow scripture to speak to you.
ttruscott
Well-known member
No I must not...that is YOUR trip into dispensationalism not mine. This is about the injustice of inherited sin, not who is Israel or a Gentile. ALL HIS sheep are gone astray no matter who they are! All must be returned to their Bishop and Redeemer. How / when did they go astray??
Please don't derail this topic again
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Actually, you do.
When you assume the conclusion of your position as your position, it's called begging the question, a logical fallacy, and leads to circular reasoning.
The first person in this thread to mention dispensationalism is you.
"All His Sheep" doesn't include everyone though. It's merely a portion of the whole. That's your position, yes?
Or are you going to argue that ALL THE HUMANS IN THE WORLD WHO EVER LIVED are His sheep? Because that leads to Universalism, which goes against what the Bible teaches.
So who are His sheep?
If you can't answer that, then you have no foundation for anything else you say, because it's completely meaningless, as you have provided no meaning for it, not to mention shows you aren't following 1 Peter 3:15. And if you refuse to answer that, then why should we believe the words of someone who won't go into detail about their beliefs?
RD is simply asking you to clarify your premise, that very thing which you found your argument on. If it's all muddy, no one will be able to see clearly how it can stand on it's own on such a foundation, because it's made of mud, and not the Rock.
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ttruscott
Well-known member
His sheep are all His elect. His sheep gone astray are all His rebellious sheep that are born as sinful humans - nothing to do with any nation or ethnicity at all. We don't need to define this any deeper to propose an answer to how, why and when they went astray. Two pages of obfuscation and no attempt at an answer...
That's a punt. Who are His elect? What does it mean to be elect?
Now you've described two groups of people.
1) "Sheep," whom you call "His elect"
2) "His sheep gone astray," whom you define as "all His rebellious sheep that are born as sinful humans"
The problem with this is that "sinful humans" describes literally everyone, as all have sinned and rebelled against God.
In other words, (2) is a subset of (1), but since (2) includes all humans, therefore (1) must also include all humans by necessity.
So please answer this, @ttruscott :
Are all humans God's sheep?
You're still the only one who has brought this up, at least since I've joined the discussion.
Because you say so?
You've only posted 5 times in this thread. Across what will now be 28 posts, that's not a lot of room for discussion. So chill.
You want to jump to a pre-set conclusion that you mentioned, but you want to ignore the flaws in your premise. It would be dishonest for us not to point out those flaws, and you only harm your own position by ignoring them. If your premise can't stand up to scrutiny, then it's likely your conclusion will be wrong, no matter how rational the argumentation is between the premise and the conclusion.
If you can address the problems with your premise, then we can move to your argumentation, and then to your conclusion.
Iron sharpens iron. If you don't want your iron sharpened, then don't put it up to be sharpened.
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Your emotionalism does nothing to help you see the truth.
Your problem, as JR has mentioned, is that your premise is FALSE. Therefore, your conclusion is invalid.
God only called Israel His sheep. You've been shown this from the scripture but your tradition blinds you to this simple truth.
It was not a derail. It was a truthful clarification of your problem.Please don't derail this topic again
ttruscott
Well-known member
Your statement denies 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. in which all converts to Christ are called sheep.
And it is off topic.
OZOS
Well-known member
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia"
Israelites.
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Peter was writing to ISRAEL.
Just believe the scripture as written instead of trying to force your meaning onto it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Although Peter's words were directly addressed to to jewish believers those Jews were members of the body of Christ. So those in the Body are referred to as sheep.
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Nonsense. Paul NEVER even ONCE calls the body of Christ sheep.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are Paul's following words addressed to those in the body or not?:
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8;36).
Do you deny that there the pronoun "we" must refer to those in the body?
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8;36).
Do you deny that there the pronoun "we" must refer to those in the body?
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Don't be a one verse cherry-picker all of the time JS.
Paul says NO, the body of Christ is NOT sheep!
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
when youcannot answer the Scripttures you accuse others of cherry picking. But in doing so you you must deny that the pronoun "we" refers to those in the Body of Christ. You prove over and over that you cannot answer verses as theyare written:
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8;36).
WE are accounted as sheep. Paul is a member of the Body so the pronoun "we" must not only refer to him but also those to whom the epistle is addressed, those in the Body. As usual, you prove that you have no respect for the scriptures as they are written.
"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter" (Ro.8;36).
WE are accounted as sheep. Paul is a member of the Body so the pronoun "we" must not only refer to him but also those to whom the epistle is addressed, those in the Body. As usual, you prove that you have no respect for the scriptures as they are written.
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Paul is QUOTING scripture JS.
This is what Paul is QUOTING.
The WE in that passage is ISRAEL.
But then Paul says NAY (NO), we are NOT sheep.
That you take verse 36 out of context and completely ignore verse 37 shows that you are indeed a cherry-picker extraordinaire.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Paul quoted Psalm 44:22 to say that in this life the people of God face much infliction and at the time he quoted those words Christians faced the possibility of being martyred. Then he said, "Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him..', meaning that that "death" (v.38) will not separate us from the love of God.
So when Paul wrote, NAY he was not saying that what he just quoted did not apply to the Body of Christ.
You say that the prounoun "we"refers to Israel even though Paul's words were addressed to those in the Body of Christ. Your interpretation of these verses make no sense. .You call me a cherry picker but all you provre is that you can't deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN.
So when Paul wrote, NAY he was not saying that what he just quoted did not apply to the Body of Christ.
You say that the prounoun "we"refers to Israel even though Paul's words were addressed to those in the Body of Christ. Your interpretation of these verses make no sense. .You call me a cherry picker but all you provre is that you can't deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN.
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That's hilarious.
The passage that Paul QUOTED was speaking about ISRAEL.... AS IT WAS WRITTEN.
The WE in the passage AS WRITTEN was ISRAEL.
Also note that that is the ONLY time the word sheep appears in ALL of Paul's epistles. It's no wonder that you will "battle to the death" to FORCE your incorrect understanding upon it.