How cows evolved into whales.

[The Barbarian]

He's in a difficult position. Most people, finding evidence that contradicts their most prized assumptions, will simply deny the evidence.

You perhaps know of Kurt Wise, a Harvard-educated paleontologist and a YE creationist. He admits freely that no evidence would shake his interpretation of Genesis. This level of faith stunned Richard Dawkins, who could not comprehend it.

A similar case was PhD geologist Harold Coffin, who testified that if it were not for his religious beliefs, the evidence would convince him that the Earth was very old.

These men looked the facts in the eye, and didn't flinch. But they were too honest to deny the facts. They simply say that their beliefs trump the evidence. There is something appalling, but also something very noble in that stance.

I am glad that I am not them. I don't know what I would do, if my faith in God required me to choose between Him and the truth.

Fortunately, He is not that kind of a God.

 

[Jukia]

So let me get this straight, Lighthouse. You're saying that we are idiots for believing something for which we have huge amounts of evidence, yet you believe stories written in a book, thousands of years ago, with no evidence?

Yep, that is what he is saying. Go figure. Clearly beyond my limited ability to comprehend the fundy intellect.

 

[Mystery]

I don't know what I would do, if my faith in God required me to choose between Him and the truth.

When is He not the truth?

 

[noguru]

When is He not the truth?

Where does He tell us about science and paleontology? In the Bible or in the natural world?

 

[noguru]

He's in a difficult position. Most people, finding evidence that contradicts their most prized assumptions, will simply deny the evidence.

You perhaps know of Kurt Wise, a Harvard-educated paleontologist and a YE creationist. He admits freely that no evidence would shake his interpretation of Genesis. This level of faith stunned Richard Dawkins, who could not comprehend it.

A similar case was PhD geologist Harold Coffin, who testified that if it were not for his religious beliefs, the evidence would convince him that the Earth was very old.

These men looked the facts in the eye, and didn't flinch. But they were too honest to deny the facts. They simply say that their beliefs trump the evidence. There is something appalling, but also something very noble in that stance.

I am glad that I am not them. I don't know what I would do, if my faith in God required me to choose between Him and the truth.

Fortunately, He is not that kind of a God.

Yes, this seems to be the dilemna. There are three types of Christians:

1.) YE creationist Christians who try to make the empirical evidence fit this static interpretation of Genesis that was established 100s of years ago.

2.) YE creationist Christians like Wise and Coffin who cling to this intpretation in the face of contradictory evidence but are honest with themselves and therefore others about why.

3.) Christians who accept St. Augustine's proposal that if the evidence we find in the real world contradicts our interpretation of the Bible then our interpretation of the Bible must be wrong.

I use to work for a man that had a good insight into this. He said that our understanding of the Bible which is a living breathing document changes as our understanding of the world changes. I found his words to be very wise.

 

[Mystery]

Where does He tell us about science and paleontology? In the Bible or in the natural world?

He didn't tell us everything, but true science will never contradict what He did tell us.

 

[Lighthouse]

You asked for transitionals. There they are. Don't get angry. Get smart. Why do you think they told you that these skeletons didn't exist? They lied to you. And these are far from the only ones. Some species now have dozens of skeletons available.

Who told me these skeletons didn't exist? I don't remember anyone telling me that. I remember being told these skeletons existed, and then only being shown 3 or 4 of them, which proves nothing, except that there was once an amphibian that appears to be extinct.

Mostly in museums (you may have noticed that several I showed you were on public display) or in research labs.

OK. So where are the rest? Where are all the ones that show every single transition made?

Those are photographs.

Where are the photographs of the rest of them? Where are the photographs of the ones you only provided drawings for?

We call them intermediates, because we can show how the population of whales changed over time. The nostrils, you might have noticed, gradually moved back in the skull, as we looked at whales over that time.

And can you prove this?

Science never "proves" anything. It just accumulates enough evidence to make it foolish to deny a theory. We can't prove the sun will be shining tomorrow, but the evidence is incontrovertable that it will.

So why should I believe it, if it hasn't proven anything?

For the same reason you don't walk off the top of high buildings. We can't prove you'll fall, but we have enough evidence to be sure you will.

I've fallen before. That's enough proof for me. Other people have fallen from roofs, again, it's been sufficiently proven.

For an honest and rational person, it's gone.

Why is it gone if nothing has been proven?

So let me get this straight, Lighthouse. You're saying that we are idiots for believing something for which we have huge amounts of evidence, yet you believe stories written in a book, thousands of years ago, with no evidence?

What makes you think I have no evidence?

 

[Real Sorceror]

He didn't tell us everything, but true science will never contradict what He did tell us.

And you know this for a fact? Unless God has spoken to you personally, then its just something you've read in a book with an unknown author.

 

[Stripe]

He didn't tell us everything, but true science will never contradict what He did tell us.

What? You hit 50 posts and you choose an optical illusion for an avatar? Why not Ironhide?

 

[Lighthouse]

What? You hit 50 posts and you choose an optical illusion for an avatar? Why not Ironhide?

He reached 50 posts a while ago. He subscribed, yesterday. That's how he got to choose a custom avatar, because he still hasn't been here for two weeks, yet.

 

[Mim...]

What makes you think I have no evidence?

Show me!

 

[Lighthouse]

Show me!

I don't have a camera.

 

[Mim...]

lain:

 

[noguru]

I don't have a camera.

What exactly would you show us with a camera?

 

[Mim...]

A photo of a bible.

 

[Lighthouse]

What exactly would you show us with a camera?

What do you want to see?

 

[Mim...]

Evidence that the bible is the inspired word of God.

 

[Lighthouse]

Evidence that the bible is the inspired word of God.

Could you be more specific? What would you consider evidence? From what I've seen you accept from the evolutionists, I would think a verse that says that Scripture is the inspired word of God, and that the writings of Moses, Peter, Paul, Luke, Solomon, David, James, etc. were Scripture would be enough. But that didn't work for me, so I won't use it to prove anything to you.

 

[noguru]

What do you want to see?

What evidence you have to reject the naturalistic explanation of origins in favor of the "supernatural" explanation.

 

[noguru]

Could you be more specific? What would you consider evidence? From what I've seen you accept from the evolutionists, I would think a verse that says that Scripture is the inspired word of God, and that the writings of Moses, Peter, Paul, Luke, Solomon, David, James, etc. were Scripture would be enough. But that didn't work for me, so I won't use it to prove anything to you.

Well what worked for you? The unbearable pressure of your guilt?