ECT How Can the Preterists be so Blind?

[Danoh]

I would like to hear from the preterists themselves how they think that Genesis 48:19 makes what is said here untrue:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

There was not a judgment of "everyone" in 70 AD so the coming of the Lord Jesus spoken of in Jude 1:14-15 did not happen in 70 AD.

That means that the preterists are in error when they assert that the Lord Jesus returned to the earthly sphere in 70 AD.

You said it brother!

 

[HisServant]

The coming of the Lord Jesus with His holy ones spoken of here did not happen in 70 AD because at that time not everyone was judged:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

Instead of actually addressing this verse all you do is to try to assassinate my character! You are an embarrassment to Christianity.

There you go again.

Any by censoring God's word... you are the embarrassment. You are the epitome of a lazy wanna be scholar.

Do you really think all verses of the bible can stand on there own... devoid of the context and culture of when and who they were written to?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There you go again.

Any by censoring God's word... you are the embarrassment. You are the epitome of a lazy wanna be scholar.

How did I censor the word of God?

Do you really think all verses of the bible can stand on there own... devoid of the context and culture of when and who they were written to?

You are the lazy one because you did not even attempt to prove that I used this passage improperly:

The coming of the Lord Jesus with His holy ones spoken of here did not happen in 70 AD because at that time not everyone was judged:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

 

[HisServant]

The coming of the Lord Jesus with His holy ones spoken of here did not happen in 70 AD because at that time not everyone was judged:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

Instead of actually addressing this verse all you do is to try to assassinate my character! You are an embarrassment to Christianity.

Judgment on False Teachers
3 Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our fcommon salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you gto contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For hcertain people ihave crept in unnoticed jwho long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert kthe grace of our God into sensuality and ldeny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 Now I want mto remind you, although you once fully knew it, that nJesus, who saved3 a people out of the land of Egypt, oafterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And pthe angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— 7 just as qSodom and Gomorrah and rthe surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and spursued unnatural desire,4 serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and tblaspheme the glorious ones. 9 But when uthe archangel vMichael, contending with the devil, was disputing wabout the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment, but said, x“The Lord rebuke you.” 10 yBut these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. 11 Woe to them! For they walked in zthe way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain ato Balaam’s error and bperished in Korah’s rebellion. 12 These are hidden reefs5 cat your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, dshepherds feeding themselves; ewaterless clouds, fswept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, guprooted; 13 hwild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of itheir own shame; jwandering stars, kfor whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
14 It was also about these that Enoch, lthe seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, m“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, 15 nto execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have ocommitted in such an ungodly way, and of all pthe harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, qfollowing their own sinful desires; rthey are loud-mouthed boasters, sshowing favoritism to gain advantage.

This is talking about the first coming of the Lord.. and his holy ones (Christians). who will judge and convict people of the error of their ways. The judgement part can be viewed two ways... you could say that all the Jews were judged by the Christians and the judgement was the destruction of the Temple in AD70, or you can scope it beyond the Jews and believe we are all still being judged.

If you look at the previous paragraph Jude is talking about things that were happening then... and then pointing to Enoch prophesying about it in the Old Testament.. He is saying that the prophesy is being fulfilled right in front of their eyes.

So you have taken it out of context and are trying to teach a different lesson from it than Jude was.

In some ways, I see Jude actually describing people like you in this passage... FYI.

 

[Interplanner]

I doubt if JerryS is like that at all, but I have to ask you: did you mean 1st coming in your first line?

And when Peter says 'his coming' in 2 Pet 3, do you think he means the 1st?

 

[HisServant]

I doubt if JerryS is like that at all, but I have to ask you: did you mean 1st coming in your first line?

And when Peter says 'his coming' in 2 Pet 3, do you think he means the 1st?

That Enoch was prophesying about when the Messiah would come upon the scene the first time (Christ).

2 Pet 3 is a bit vague to say anything definite... it was not written as prophesy and is basically only an exhortation and warning to Christians.

 

[Interplanner]

You mean to scoffers, don't you?

 

[john w]

I found the revelations perfectly matched the old testaments but never matches something that hasn't happened yet and still continuing. How often do people say Jesus is coming tommorrow when they say it everyday for 2000 years and still counting?

Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

How many years, from the above prophecy,...

it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ...

...and its ultimate fulfillment? 6000 years, or so?




2 Peter 3 KJV
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is talking about the first coming of the Lord.. and his holy ones (Christians). who will judge and convict people of the error of their ways.

The time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth (His first advent) He stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come to judge the world:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn.12:47).​

However, this passage speaks of Him judging everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

All you prove is the fact that you totally ignorant concerning the Lord Jesus' mission during His first advent. You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to defend the false teaching of the preterists.

 

[Puppet]

Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

How many years, from the above prophecy,...

it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ...

...and its ultimate fulfillment? 6000 years, or so?




2 Peter 3 KJV
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

It is the proclamation of the gospel of the coming triumphant messiah.
I'm done with false MAD. Been there done that. Ain't doing that agian.

Now go sit in the back. Sit, stay !

 

[john w]

It is the proclamation of the gospel of the coming triumphant messiah.
I'm done with false MAD. Been there done that. Ain't doing that agian.

Now go sit in the back. Sit, stay !

Nope, scoffer-you "argued:"

say it everyday for 2000 years and still counting?

Genesis 3:15 KJV
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

How many years, from the above prophecy,...


it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. ...

...and its ultimate fulfillment? 6000 years, or so?

I thought so. Now, take your seat, in the back row, until I decide to give you the honor of engaging me again.


"I'm done with false MAD. Been there done that. Ain't doing that agian."-pup

Translated: You are not done with MAD, as you'll keep coming back, for some more getting bloodied, pounding, methodically being dismantled, and ending up in a heap, on the mat.

Stay down....on the mat. Sit, Boo Boo.

Can you dig it?


saint John "House" W

 

[tetelestai]

So what does Genesis 48:19 have to do with this passage?:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

It has nothing to do with Jude 1:14-15

It has everything to do with the verse in your post I responded to (Matt 25:32)

Please explain Gen 48:19?

Tell us what "multitude of nations" the descendants of Jacob, Joseph, and Ephraim became?

 

[tetelestai]

The last 'world' judgement was by water, the next will be by fire. The NHNE will follow. ......If Peter is not using ordinary meaning about the melting of the elements in 2 Pet 3, then neither is Noah's flood ordinary, and you have to explain that.

I don't believe that 1st century Judean elements and 2nd coming worldwide elements are mixed by the apostles.

The word "elements" is found 4 times in the KJV.

Two of those times are in 2 Peter 3, the other two times are in Galatians.

(Gal 4:3 KJV) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

(Gal 4:9 KJV) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Now, if we take the context of "elements" in the two Galatians verses, and use it in 2 Peter 3, you get a different story.

As for fire

(1 Cor 3:13) their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work.


In 1 Cor 3:13 will each believers works literally be tested with literal fire?

Peter wasn't speaking of literal elements and literal fire. He was using the same symbolism Paul used.

 

[HisServant]

The time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth (His first advent) He stated in no uncertain terms that He did not come to judge the world:

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" (Jn.12:47).​

However, this passage speaks of Him judging everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

All you prove is the fact that you totally ignorant concerning the Lord Jesus' mission during His first advent. You prove that you will say anything, no matter how ridiculous, to defend the false teaching of the preterists.

The plain reading of the word is easy to discern.. why must you make it so obtuse and convoluted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It has nothing to do with Jude 1:14-15

It has everything to do with the verse in your post I responded to (Matt 25:32)

Please explain Gen 48:19?[/QUOTE]

I am still waiting for you to tell us when in 70 AD did the Lord Jesus judge everyone:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

This passage completely destroys the teaching of preterism because the lord Jesus did not judge everyone in 70 AD.

That is why you run and hide from that truth!

 

[Interplanner]

Tet,
as I said before Paul used the molecular expression 'elements of the world' about Judaism (really neo-Judaism) in the west coast area of Little Asia. That's all. It would not be the same thing for Peter drawing parallels to the flood. Please check the two contexts. Gal and Col are clearly about an agressive Judaism.

Peter does not use 'weak and miserable' because the 'molecular' (physicist's) meaning would not have anything to do with that. Paul used it and was describing the impact oF Judaism when compared to Christ, the Gospel and freedom.

So I don't accept what you're saying. Peter has no symbolic water when referring to the flood, as you can see.

 

[tetelestai]

I am still waiting for you to tell us when in 70 AD did the Lord Jesus judge everyone:

Why do you keep ignoring Gen 48:19?

I asked you to explain Gen 48:19 before you brought up Jude 14-15.

Explain Gen 48:19?

Why do you keep running and hiding, and trying to change the subject?

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
how do you know Enoch wasn't referring to the flood? Why does everything have to do with the 2nd coming?

 

[Interplanner]

JerryS,
I checked your Enoch quote and you are mistaken to think that a person would associate that with the atoning suffering anyway. Have you already forgotten that the question of the DofJ has to do with how much it contains of a 2nd coming?

I don't think anyone here has ever said that the judgement of the DofJ was included with the atoning suffering of Christ. Not when he himself said it was roughly a generation away. Until you did, just above. Calm down. You're full of ugly inflammatory remarks that you should be ashamed of.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JerryS,
I checked your Enoch quote and you are mistaken to think that a person would associate that with the atoning suffering anyway.

I never said that Jude 1:14-15 is about the atoning suffering of Christ. Insead, I have always said that the passage is in regard to His second advent, a time after the Cross.

You cannot even understand what people say in their posts, much less what the Bible teaches. So I do not need any lectures from people like you.