ECT How Can the Preterists be so Blind?

[tetelestai]

Tetestai,
please explain your reasons why all of B (after 'right after' in v29) is completely covered by 70 AD

Verse 29 is a quote from Isaiah.

Verse 34 tells us that the generation of the contemporaries of Jesus will not all pass away till all the things Jesus said would happen, happened.

It helps reading Luke 21 and Mark 13.

For example, Luke 21 does not have the Isaiah quote, but all the other signs are the same.

So, your "delay" theory from verse 29 of Matthew chp 24 is not supported in Luke chp 21

 

[Interplanner]

But if there are three reasons to accept it, we can't rely on Lk 21 only. The others don't deny that either a Judean or a worldwide judgement would come, they only assert (insert!) that there might be a delay between them.

 

[turbosixx]

But if there are three reasons to accept it, we can't rely on Lk 21 only. The others don't deny that either a Judean or a worldwide judgement would come, only that there might be a delay between them.

I don't understand all this fascination with the end of time. The way I see it, we all experience the end of time in our life time. When we die or if Christ comes again, it's the end of time for us on an individual level. We don't know what day that will be so we should live each day as our last.

 

[tetelestai]

But if there are three reasons to accept it, we can't rely on Lk 21 only. The others don't deny that either a Judean or a worldwide judgement would come, only that there might be a delay between them.

Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13 all say pretty much the same thing:

(Mark 13:30 KJV) Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

(Luke 21:32 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(Matt 24:34 KJV) Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

There's no getting around these verses.

Also, Jude proves your "delay" theory from 2 Peter 3 wrong.

There was no delay.

Matt 16:28 lines up perfectly with the above three verses.

 

[Interplanner]

You've missed the (contradictory) fact that 'only the Father knows' right smack in the middle of 24B.

There is a paragraph in Lattourrette Vol 1, p43 (as I recall) where he discusses how the apostles came to the realization that the 2nd coming was not going to be immediately after the implosion of Israel after all. It is very good historical theology, and all about this contradiction in this text.

you'll have to be more specfic about 2 Pet 3...what exactly is discounted? The 2nd coming? The reason for delay? The way the world will end? Or maybe my question is more like: what exactly about Jude speaks to it, since the bulk of Jude has to do with 2 Pet 2?

 

[tetelestai]

You've missed the (contradictory) fact that 'only the Father knows' right smack in the middle of 24B.

It's a reference to the Feast of Trumpets.

It has to do with the new moon.

There is a paragraph in Lattourrette Vol 1, p43 (as I recall) where he discusses how the apostles came to the realization that the 2nd coming was not going to be immediately after the implosion of Israel after all. It is very good historical theology, and all about this contradiction in this text.

Paul made it clear that the rebellion had to happen first. This was a reference to the Great Jewish Revolt which began in 66AD

you'll have to be more specfic about 2 Pet 3...what exactly is discounted?

Peter said scoffers would come in the last days.

Jude quoted Peter, and said the scoffers were amongst them, in the present

The 2nd coming? The reason for delay?

Yes, the second coming. The reason for the delay was so more Jews would come to Christ and be spared for what happened to Jerusalem 66AD - 70AD

 

[iamaberean]

Let us look at this verse:

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:30).​

Notice that he says all tribes of the earth. Tribes refers to Israel.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Here Jesus tells his disciples that they will judge, with him, the twelve tribes of Israel.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Our sins have been remitted through God.

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Christians are justified by faith, not law.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Those that are being judged are judged by their works, that would be the ones who lived under law, the twelve tribes of Israel.!

 

[Interplanner]

It's a reference to the Feast of Trumpets.

It has to do with the new moon.



Paul made it clear that the rebellion had to happen first. This was a reference to the Great Jewish Revolt which began in 66AD



Peter said scoffers would come in the last days.

Jude quoted Peter, and said the scoffers were amongst them, in the present



Yes, the second coming. The reason for the delay was so more Jews would come to Christ and be spared for what happened to Jerusalem 66AD - 70AD

Tet,
I don't think our communication is clear yet.

I have read your explanation of only the Father knows. That would fine tune the date by +/- 2 days at the most. I don't get the impression from Mt24B that that matters. Compare with the parable of the attentive servants in Mk 13, where 4 different times during the night (and the symbol of the night has to be worked ) are mentioned. We are talking about the final judgement of the whole world, aren't we?

re:
scoffers. Jude's mentioning scoffers does not cover all the questions. That was current for Peter and Jude. Peter then goes on to describe the end of the world. The last 'world' judgement was by water, the next will be by fire. The NHNE will follow. Unless you think 'the coming' (v4) referred to Christ's first coming, the passage is supporting and explaining a delay between the DofJ and the final day of judgement. Since Peter was writing before the DofJ, they could be in immediate succession, but he does allow a huge time period before the end of the world.

re 2nd coming
So where are the features of the 2nd coming in 70 AD? If Peter is not using ordinary meaning about the melting of the elements in 2 Pet 3, then neither is Noah's flood ordinary, and you have to explain that.

I don't believe that 1st century Judean elements and 2nd coming worldwide elements are mixed by the apostles.

 

[Interplanner]

Tet,
After re-reading, I'm getting the sense that you think the DofJ was possibly delayed. I have never heard this. What are your reasons for that? Why mention a whole generation if he wasn't going to wait out the whole generation? Do you believe that because of the end date of the 490 years, or maybe because Paul said in the mid 40s that the wrath of God was on Israel completely in I Th 2?

 

[Danoh]

Tet,
After re-reading, I'm getting the sense that you think the DofJ was possibly delayed. I have never heard this. What are your reasons for that? Why mention a whole generation if he wasn't going to wait out the whole generation? Do you believe that because of the end date of the 490 years, or maybe because Paul said in the mid 40s that the wrath of God was on Israel completely in I Th 2?

You guys should ask for your own safe house on here. A place where you and yours might explore what you are exploring without our interruption.

And visa versa where we are concerned.

For we all already have open forums for all to debate one another, on the various issues we so strongly differ on.

Also, so that you guys can continue wrong to your hearts content.

 

[Interplanner]

Because your interruptions will make things more clear. We do not have our heads in the sand and we want to keep open to all questions. The last thing I want to do is be "safe."

 

[Danoh]

Because your interruptions will make things more clear. We do not have our heads in the sand and we want to keep open to all questions. The last thing I want to do is be "safe."

Are you really that incompetent a reader?

My suggestion was both options.

I don't mind debating others and or comparing differences in understanding with those of other schools of thought.

At the same time, I also like exploring both sameness and differences in understanding with those within our own school.

When actual exploration is the case.

Man, are you willfully ignorant in what you choose to believe another person meant.

But, you do that with Scripture. So I shouldn't really be surprised.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, I can show that every verse in your OP was fulfilled by Christ Jesus in 70AD.

You have cherry picked different verses to support your Dispensationalism, yet you have no answer for Gen 48:19.

So what does Genesis 48:19 have to do with this passage?:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

That prophecy is referring to the same thing found in the following passage, where the Lord Jesus is seen taking vengeance on everyone who does not know God:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2 Thess.1:6-8).​

Of course you bring up a verse which answers nothing about these two passages. All you are doing is to trying to change the subject in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer to what is said at Jude 1:14-15.

 

[HisServant]

Hey... the head blasphemer and editor of God's word is back... twisting Gods word for his own nefarious aims!

 

[Danoh]

So what does Genesis 48:19 have to do with this passage?

They have come up with this notion that that passage in Gen. 48:19 is referring to Gentiles.

But what Moses is actually talking about is the same thing Ezekiel talks about in Ezekiel 37.

How that a large portion would end up mixed with Gentiles.

And this not only ended up being the case waaaaaay before Ezekiel, but even more so throughout the centuries waaaaaaay after 70AD and to this very day.

Spanish Jews [Spain] Italian Jews [Rome] Cuban Jews, German Jews, Russian Jews, African, the various Middle Eastern Jews, the North American, you name it, this absolutely amazing people are now temporarily scattered and intermixed with Gentiles and in apostasy the world over.

In short, the God of Genesis 48's/Ezekiel 37's prophecy carries a very big stick...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They have come up with this notion that that passage in Gen. 48:19 is referring to Gentiles.

I would like to hear from the preterists themselves how they think that Genesis 48:19 makes what is said here untrue:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

There was not a judgment of "everyone" in 70 AD so the coming of the Lord Jesus spoken of in Jude 1:14-15 did not happen in 70 AD.

That means that the preterists are in error when they assert that the Lord Jesus returned to the earthly sphere in 70 AD.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hey... the head blasphemer and editor of God's word is back... twisting Gods word for his own nefarious aims!

The coming of the Lord Jesus with His holy ones spoken of here did not happen in 70 AD because at that time not everyone was judged:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

Instead of actually addressing this verse all you do is to try to assassinate my character! You are an embarrassment to Christianity.

 

[Interplanner]

Do they?

I say the judgement on Israel happened then; the worldwide judgement did not. It sounds like it might have from some passages, but they usually allow for a delay.

Don't generalize. There are not as many "the preterists" as you think. There are partials and many other kinds.

 

[Interplanner]

Date setters and people who inject 2000 years in to Mt24A are an embarrassment because the missed the buildup of chs 21, 22, 23.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I say the judgement on Israel happened then; the worldwide judgement did not.

Even though the following passage makes it plain that when the lord Jesus returns "everyone" will be judged you say that He has already returned and that only Israel was judged then:

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him'" (Jude 1:14-15).​

I have never seen anyone who displays less faith in what the Scriptures actually say than you and the rest of the preterists!

Have you no shame?