How can God resurrect us if we do not have an immortal soul?

way 2 go

Well-known member
no He didnt lie...especially when He said His friend was DEAD...He did NOT say His dead friend had gone to bosomville...

Talking about Santa to teach about clean chimneys does not mean Santa is real...

Just like His using a folktale about Abraham’s bosom to teach forgiveness does not mean it was a documantary on the afterlife...

bosomville , mocking Jesus , good choice


you have cognitive dissonance :kookoo:

you say Jesus didn't lie

but lied here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Right. Saul’s heart was long idolatrous willing to believe and follow anything but Him His prophets even. Is why Saul was abandoned by Him.
Is why Abraham knew not to let anyone get up off his bosom put on a robe and ascend back up to the top side world...no one would be convinced...unto repentance...convinced by their own eidolon sure but not unto repentance...
1Ch 10:13
“So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit real power, to enquire of it; disturb Samuel and dial him up from Bosomville.”
There fixed it for you to say what your heart wishes it would say.

giphy-downsized.gif
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
indeed it does

Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.



but he was speaking to the demon’s accuracy rather than power to posses or even that the girl was accurate despite being possesssed by the demon...or because of it

conjecture
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
I mean it makes perfect sense that a folktale revised by jews is in support of an afterlife myth also revised by jews...jewish purgatory...


Good stuff here I tell ya...come taste and see the Lord is good not a liar...
:kookoo:

not a lie not a folk tale.
Jesus spoke of things that exist here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Keep winding your brain up. You still have a way to go before you get Luke 16 :)

Jesus told us about things that exist , you deny that .


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
 

iouae

Well-known member
Jesus told us about things that exist , you deny that .


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Where do you fit these into the above parable?

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Where do you fit these into the above parable?

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
I do not see them making Jesus a liar

you say Jesus didn't lie

but you say Jesus lied here:


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Ahh the ever charming Gloriously Dazed.

What is your excuse for still hanging out with us :)

Ah, the ever pompous vowels.

You wish.....I'm not hanging out. I read all of Way2Go's posts wherever they are, and read posts by those who have quoted me. Which you just did, although you had nothing of value to say. Call me a fool for checking.
 

iouae

Well-known member
I do not see them making Jesus a liar

you say Jesus didn't lie

but you say Jesus lied here:


Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

So you can't fit these obvious, easy to understand and clear scriptures into this parable.

Ecc 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Psa 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

You got nothing. No attempt even.

Why don't you just quote Luke 16 a few more times, perhaps with a rubbish dump picture and a few insults?
 

way 2 go

Well-known member


Why don't you just quote Luke 16 a few more times, perhaps with a rubbish dump picture and a few insults?
you have cognitive dissonance

pick 1

you like to say Jesus told the truth

but you say Jesus lied here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
 

clefty

New member
bosomville , mocking Jesus , good choice
yes I dont expect one needing pictures and emoji to express themselves would understand the subtleties and nuances of prose and literature...

I am not mocking Him but those that think all this a documentary on the after life...

His use of a popular folk tale to troll the pharisees is fabulous stuff completely lost on you...to warn them and teach forgiveness from a story otherwise loved for being about the first being last and the last first...

Luke 16 begins with Yahushua teaching the disciples about stewardship and money and serving ONE master...the Pharisees are eavesdropping and already snarking as yours do...and so He directs one into their midst about their love of money and power being detestable to Yah...He adds insult to the injury by reminding them their time is over and the people are forcing their way into the kingdom despite them....and as it is easier for Heaven and Earth to DISAPPEAR than the pharisees to CHANGE THE LAW...which LAW? Yahushua goes for the kill shot...the law of divorce WHICH WAS CHANGED BY THEM THEIR TRADITION to their oppression...but was now returning to the original ONE WIFE ONLY...

He then returns to the disciples to tell of the popular story of Lazarus (the poor people oppressed) and the rich man (now the pharisees) and how it doesn’t end up so good for them...Hooray right? Poor win over rich...no wonder it is such a popular folk tale...the POOR WIN...

but wait! there is the problem of WHY does the rich man end up in “hades” just because he was rich? Or because he didnt forgive the begging Lazarus...that lesson is now directed at the pharisees...forgiving is NOT their MO certainly not the poor illiterate they oppress or HORRORS...THE GENTILES OUTSIDE THEIR GATES...

But the trolling of the pharisees is concluded with the admonition (to the pharisees) to forgive multiple times the offending (poor) and woe to them pharisees who cause the little ones to stumble TO BECOME BEGGARS

But forgive forgive forgive forgive forgive forgive forgive each day all repented offenses...the disciples then ask “increase our faith”...and not a faith in bosomville but in the continued forgiveness of the repenting offender...


you have cognitive dissonance :kookoo:

you say Jesus didn't lie
He didnt He said His friend Lazarus was dead...NOT in Bosomville

but lied here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Again using the story of Santa Clause to teach the need for clean chimneys does not mean Santa is truly real...

So telling the tale of Bosomville to teach another moral does not make Bosomville an actual place...



Your mind revealed?
 
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clefty

New member
Act 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling.
see it does say that but we weren’t discussing that...but that the spirit was telling the truth...

Hope you read scripture better than these postings...





conjecture
so the spirit was lying about Paul? Your train wreck of logic can not be unseen...
 

clefty

New member
:kookoo:

not a lie not a folk tale.
Jesus spoke of things that exist here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Oh sure they do and some of what is here exists as folk tales myths and/or legends assimilated and appropriated by the jews from others...a known pattern...continued by christendom actually...building on to it for fuller effect


Oh and BTW

Matthew is clear:

Matt 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

So He taught using parables...
 
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way 2 go

Well-known member
see it does say that but we weren’t discussing that...but that the spirit was telling the truth...
demons speaking truth here too

Mat 8:28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way.
Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”

& here too

uk 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice,
Luk 4:34 “Ha! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”

I never said demons don't speak truth ever ,so much for that strawman

it was Samuel speaking truth here , no indication of demons from the text, just your conjecture

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Oh sure they do and some of what is here exists as folk tales myths and/or legends assimilated and appropriated by the jews from others...a known pattern...continued by christendom actually...building on to it for fuller effect


you have cognitive dissonance too

pick 1

you like to say Jesus told the truth

but you say Jesus lied here:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.


Oh and BTW

Matthew is clear:

Matt 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

So He taught using parables...
not a parable , no bible labels it a parable &
the verse preceding luke 16:19
luke 16:18 is not a parable either .

Luk 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Clefty, I experienced the dryness of mouth which mental stress gives one, two weeks ago.

I had flown up to the funeral of a dear friend T who had committed suicide, and I was the second of a dozen people paying tribute to him. My mouth went completely dry, and I commandeered a tiny cup of water, with only one inch of water in it, from the lady sitting next to me. There were a few hundred folks at this funeral. That tiny bit of water loosened my tongue enough to speak. The last thing I wanted was a bucket of water.

At this funeral were prison inmates, folks from off the street, folks from all Africa who T had allowed to stay in his house. T had got sick doing missionary work in Thailand, and never recovered, but he had had a prison ministry and converted dozens of prisoners, and provided sources of income for these prisoners after they got out. He had also given all he owned to Jesus. Yet T had committed suicide.

I spoke as follows...
"We are put on earth for one reason only, that is to tick the box 'Friend of Jesus'. Not 'Friend of Jesus' and kept every commandment perfectly. Not 'Friend of Jesus' and look at all these good works which I have done for Jesus. Just 'Friend of Jesus'. And T ticked this box, in spades.

"Now T is dead, and awaiting the last trump. When Jesus returns, the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible. T will rise to meet Jesus in the air. All the good attributes which we knew and loved about T will rise with T, but all his issues will be left behind. He will rise with a clear and wonderful mind.

I then spoke about some of T's wonderful attributes, how he could arrive in a place, and within hours could know and have met everyone in that place. T had the most amazing ability to chat folks up, or engage people in conversation. And he was very entertaining when he got a crowd around him. I called these his "super-powers". He was always a little over the top, and did everything to excess. I listed some of the things I remember him doing to excess.

But he was a person who needed people, exercise, and something to give him a feeling of self-worth. Some activity. I mentioned how, if left alone for any length of time without the above three, that one could almost visibly see his feelings of self worth decline. T was not like the rest of us, I said, who can do nothing and feel good about ourselves. In two sentences I mentioned where I thought his feelings of lack of self esteem originated.

I mentioned how, for baby boomers who have reached retirement, there are no jobs, so no folks around one at work to get feelings of self affirmation from, and one's health is declining too, so one cannot exercise. I know these factors were all working against T.

That was the gist of my speech.

Then many others got up and spoke of how T had impacted their lives for the better.
 
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clefty

New member
demons speaking truth here too

Mat 8:28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way.
Mat 8:29 And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?”
yup...even demons love dat pork chops n bacon...

& here too

uk 4:33 And in the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a loud voice,
Luk 4:34 “Ha! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”

I never said demons don't speak truth ever ,so much for that strawman
ummmm...nobody said you did...this isn’t all about you no matter how hard you try...sorry your narcissism causes you to jump into other people’s conversation...and doesn’t let you read what other scholars say about these events...like the links I provided...keep that head in that sand buddy...just keep reading your own stuff

it was Samuel speaking truth here , no indication of demons from the text, just your conjecture
not just mine but the witch’s...she said it was a ghost wearing a robe...is why they are known as soothesayers and not deadraisers...they SAY they bring up the dead to SOOTHE...when even according to the Bosomville parable Abraham doesnt let anybody uptop as they wouldnt believe one risen from the dead...

1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel

1Sa 28:14 ... And Saul knew that it was Samuel,

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered,

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said,

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel

Yes it does say Samuel doesnt it...hey, did you happen to notice the title of the book this event occurs in is Samuel? So at what point did Samuel mail it in from Bosomville?

I mean jewish tradition says he wrote it...probably cuz it has his name on it? It is written that way...so it must be true...
 
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clefty

New member
you have cognitive dissonance too
he repeats over and over...

pick 1

you like to say Jesus told the truth
He did He stated clearly His friend Lazarus was dead not in Bosomville.

but you say Jesus lied here:
nope I never said He lied here...you said I said...liar

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.


And if it’s a real event, a documented report, a historical record, how come the rich man does NOT have a name...poor investigative journaling even

So what is the rich man’s name?

not a parable , no bible labels it a parable
actually you know those paragraph headings/title breaks? Yup says “parable” not “historical event”


the verse preceding luke 16:19
luke 16:18 is not a parable either .

Luk 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
feel free to take it up with Matthew...you might need a soothsayer...saying she rung him up for you for to soothe you
 

clefty

New member
Clefty, I experienced the dryness of mouth which mental stress gives one, two weeks ago.

I had flown up to the funeral of a dear friend T who had committed suicide, and I was the second of a dozen people paying tribute to him. My mouth went completely dry, and I commandeered a tiny cup of water, with only one inch of water in it, from the lady sitting next to me. There were a few hundred folks at this funeral. That tiny bit of water loosened my tongue enough to speak. The last thing I wanted was a bucket of water.

At this funeral were prison inmates, folks from off the street, folks from all Africa who T had allowed to stay in his house. T had got sick doing missionary work in Thailand, and never recovered, but he had had a prison ministry and converted dozens of prisoners, and provided sources of income for these prisoners after they got out. He had also given all he owned to Jesus. Yet T had committed suicide.

I spoke as follows...
"We are put on earth for one reason only, that is to tick the box 'Friend of Jesus'. Not 'Friend of Jesus' and kept every commandment perfectly. Not 'Friend of Jesus' and look at all these good works which I have done for Jesus. Just 'Friend of Jesus'. And T ticked this box, in spades.

"Now T is dead, and awaiting the last trump. When Jesus returns, the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible. T will rise to meet Jesus in the air. All the good attributes which we knew and loved about T will rise with T, but all his issues will be left behind. He will rise with a clear and wonderful mind.

I then spoke about some of T's wonderful attributes, how he could arrive in a place, and within hours could know and have met everyone in that place. T had the most amazing ability to chat folks up, or engage people in conversation. And he was very entertaining when he got a crowd around him. I called these his "super-powers". He was always a little over the top, and did everything to excess. I listed some of the things I remember him doing to excess.

But he was a person who needed people, exercise, and something to give him a feeling of self-worth. Some activity. I mentioned how, if left alone for any length of time without the above three, that one could almost visibly see his feelings of self worth decline. T was not like the rest of us, I said, who can do nothing and feel good about ourselves. In two sentences I mentioned where I thought his feelings of lack of self esteem originated.

I mentioned how, for baby boomers who have reached retirement, there are no jobs, so no folks around one at work to get feelings of self affirmation from, and one's health is declining too, so one cannot exercise. I know these factors were all working against T.

That was the gist of my speech.

Then many others got up and spoke of how T had impacted their lives for the better.

Again sorry for your loss...when we do check that box off and then do the good works it really paints a big target on our backs...Satan works all the harder to overpower one...

I dont know how others can cope without the hope...of resurrection to Him and His better buildings for us...may it bring comfort to you that he sleeps no pain no suffering but rests...waiting for that day...for Him...for the rest of us
 

clefty

New member
Keep winding your brain up. You still have a way to go before you get Luke 16 :)

If this was a recorded event having actually occured in Bosomville such a central witness as the rich man was should also have a name.

I think it is only fair we demand to know what the rich man’s name was...and maybe even his 5 brothers...scripture is good at documenting protagonists and such...of actual events...

And add to that who was the reporter who witnessed this event in Bosomville and came back with the story?

Surely they could have remembered to include the rich man’s name too...
 
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