ECT How alone is Grace alone salvation?

[Right Divider]

MADists deny any need on their to repent or obey or learn from historical church/creeds or practice the sacraments or regularly worship with fellow saints.

If I am wrong, please explain where and why that message is coming through on this site . .

Because you, like many others, are beating up a straw-man of your own creation.

 

[Nang]

How much proves we are saved? :idunno:

:dunce:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:dunce:

Can "spiritual evidence" not be quantified?

The real truth is, you know that you cannot answer the question, as there are atheists in this world who are a "better person" than you.

 

[Nang]

Can "spiritual evidence" not be quantified?

The real truth is, you know that you cannot answer the question, as there are atheists in this world who are a "better person" than you.

You are talking "works." I am talking manifesting the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Can you discern the difference?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You are talking "works." I am talking manifesting the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Can you discern the difference?

Can atheists exude these, at times?


Gal 5:22 (KJV)


How do you tell them apart from a saved person?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No kidding. And you think that WE do not think this?

Don't you know that MAD wackos regularly encourage all night benders, adultery, murders, thefts, and the like?

 

[Nang]

Can atheists exude these, at times?


Gal 5:22 (KJV)


How do you tell them apart from a saved person?

I John 2:3-11; 2:18-19; 3:18-24; 4:6

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I John 2:3-11; 2:18-19; 3:18-24; 4:6

If we keep his commandments...

How many? What percentage is acceptable? We need to know this.

 

[Nang]

If we keep his commandments...

How many? What percentage is acceptable? We need to know this.

:dunce:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:dunce:

1 John 2:3 (KJV)

Do you keep them 100% of the time?
Then you do not "keep them" at all.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:dunce:

I asked a logical and reasonable question based on the information you've given us in this thread.

 

[Shasta]

How much proves we are saved? :idunno:

…7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-8).

I could imagine Pharisees, trying to justify themselves asking this question of John. "How much change proves we have repented?" Well, enough so that their pattern of behavior would no longer be characteristic of spiritual vipers. From what we know about many of them that would be a profound change.

Paul also preached that believing in Christ and submitting ones life to Him is attended with a major change of life:

...19 I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. 20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance (Acts 26:19-20).

Apparently, a REAL experience of "repenting and turning to God" produces changes in what a person DOES not merely in what they believe. Someone like Simon Magus said all the right things and submitted to Baptism but Peter said he was "still in the gall of bitterness, the bond of iniquity." Being truly born again involves a radical change that can definitely be observed but not exactly quantified.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

…7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-8).

I could imagine Pharisees, trying to justify themselves asking this question of John. "How much change proves we have repented?" Well, enough so that their pattern of behavior would no longer be characteristic of spiritual vipers. From what we know about many of them that would be a profound change.

Paul also preached that believing in Christ and submitting ones life to Him is attended with a major change of life:

...19 I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. 20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance (Acts 26:19-20).

Apparently, a REAL experience of "repenting and turning to God" produces changes in what a person DOES not merely in what they believe. Someone like Simon Magus said all the right things and submitted to Baptism but Peter said he was "still in the gall of bitterness, the bond of iniquity." Being truly born again involves a radical change that can definitely be observed but not exactly quantified.

Shasta...

You talk a good game, but... You are simply tampering with peoples salvational assurance. See ya round.

- EE

 

[Nang]

…7 But when John saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his place of baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:7-8).

I could imagine Pharisees, trying to justify themselves asking this question of John. "How much change proves we have repented?" Well, enough so that their pattern of behavior would no longer be characteristic of spiritual vipers. From what we know about many of them that would be a profound change.

Paul also preached that believing in Christ and submitting ones life to Him is attended with a major change of life:

...19 I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. 20 First to those in Damascus and Jerusalem, then to everyone in the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I declared that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds worthy of their repentance (Acts 26:19-20).

Apparently, a REAL experience of "repenting and turning to God" produces changes in what a person DOES not merely in what they believe. Someone like Simon Magus said all the right things and submitted to Baptism but Peter said he was "still in the gall of bitterness, the bond of iniquity." Being truly born again involves a radical change that can definitely be observed but not exactly quantified.

This (bolded) is the core of the problem and the reason for the MAD argument against bearing the fruit of the Spirit. They do not believe Christians of this age are born again. They think that will only occur amongst the Jews when Christ returns again.

Thus, according to them, Christians of today do not possess resurrected and changed hearts, minds, or wills as John 3 teaches. They are simply given a "free pass" of grace, that frees them from all penalty of sin . . which is a perversion of God's grace altogether.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Obviously, you do not grasp the discussion. No one is advocating "perfectionism."

That's a relief, because it's God's standard and the super self-righteous that have super-duper "self-righteousness" and the heroin addicted, transvestite, homosexual, boy-friend beating, bank robbing, puppy kicking atheist have something in common... They are both in need of Jesus.

It's nice to know that you're not questioning Jesus or Paul (Ephesians 2:8f; John 6:29, 63)

I beg your pardon!

You didn't have to beg... you are pardoned.

My position is that the grace of God, that pardons all sin, should not be used as a license to practice sin.

Oh, I misunderstood you when you told [MENTION=7053]SaulToPaul[/MENTION] that he was trying to turn grace into a licence to sin. It's a good thing I misunderstood you... because you would then be adding carnal requirement to salvation and you would be carnally judging, while suggesting that Jesus died "so we could sin", instead of "because we sin". After all... (1 John 1:8)... Thank goodness I misunderstood you.

My testimony has always been, that repentance and obedience are gifts from God, and not works at all.

So you like to compare your "gifts" to others?

You need to read closer and better before injecting your accusations into a thread.

You need to stop exalting people over God and take a note from two of your Calvinist Siblings in Christ that exemplify the correct meaning of "Salvation by Grace".

Another accusation. Where do they all come from?

I am so regretful that I have offended you. If only I was as kind and graceful in my discourse with others, like you are.

And those 5 items? The Bible. Man cannot claim credit for them. Sola Grace (Ephesians 2:8f)... Sola Christ (John 5:39f)... Glory to God Sola (2 Cor. 12:9)... Sola Scripture (2 Tim. 3:16) ... Sola Faith (Acts 16:31)

Another empty accusation . . my, my . . who do you represent, anyway?

A forgiven Sinner, Thankful for Jesus

Here is my Christian advice to those who truly know the grace of God:

"Finally brethren, whatever things are TRUE, whatever things are NOBLE, whatever things are JUST, whatever things are PURE, whatever things are LOVELY, whatever things are of GOOD REPORT; if there is any VIRTUE and if there is anything PRAISEWORTHY . . meditate on these things." Philippians 4:8

The grace of God alone, gifts His spiritual children the heart, minds, will, and capacity to live as instructed above.

So ... you are taking these verses out of context to judge your fellow Christian Siblings... Why?

 

[Shasta]

Shasta...

You talk a good game, but... You are simply tampering with peoples salvational assurance. See ya round.

- EE

For every sincere believer who is insecure and needs assurance of their salvation there are multitudes who are living in sin utterly devoid of the fear of God. This may be a distorted perspective of someone who frequently tries to help people like this, but we live in an increasingly lawless society and many Christians have been swept up in the spirit of the age.

I do not see Jesus' commands as burdensome because the Spirit is within us working to "will and do of His good pleasure." The Jews under the Law had to follow the statutes of the Book. We have to walk in the Spirit. It does not seem like work to me. Work is trying to do things on my own.

 

[Nang]

So ... you are taking these verses out of context to judge your fellow Christian Siblings... Why?

Pot . . kettle . . black . . . :down:

Your user name fits you.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

For every sincere believer who is insecure and needs assurance of their salvation there are multitudes who are living in sin utterly devoid of the fear of God. This may be a distorted perspective of someone who frequently tries to help people like this get their lives right with God, but we live in an increasingly lawless society and many Christians have been swept up in the spirit of the age.

I do not see Jesus' command as burdensome because the Spirit is within us working to "will and do of His good pleasure." The Jews under the Law had to follow the statutes of the Book. We have to walk in the Spirit. It does not seem like work to me. Work is trying to do things on my own.

Honestly... I dislike doing this... but you're all dressed up all neat and slick... but the end game is the same... You say you don't boast in yourself and are biblical...

But, friendo... you're not doing Jesus any favors by encouraging others to doubt their salvation, and you are exalting your obedience, while simultaneously saying you are humble.

In other words... James 2:10 Chump.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Pot . . kettle . . black . . . :down:

Your user name fits you.

I get to be the Kettle!!! You can't be the kettle this time! You're so unfair!!!

#Stomping

 

[Nang]

For every sincere believer who is insecure and needs assurance of their salvation there are multitudes who are living in sin utterly devoid of the fear of God. This may be a distorted perspective of someone who frequently tries to help people like this, but we live in an increasingly lawless society and many Christians have been swept up in the spirit of the age.

I do not see Jesus' commands as burdensome because the Spirit is within us working to "will and do of His good pleasure." The Jews under the Law had to follow the statutes of the Book. We have to walk in the Spirit. It does not seem like work to me. Work is trying to do things on my own.

You are correct. To walk in the Spirit is sanctification, blessing, and privilege; not "works."

I am thankful we have found a vital area of agreement.