SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
How much proves that you are saved?
ECT How alone is Grace alone salvation?
- Thread starter Lon
- Start date
How much proves that you are saved?
:dizzy:
How much fruit?
How much obedience?
An atheist.......................................can repent, obey, show "fruit."
Pathetic-does not even know that it is "fruit"(singular), not "fruits"(plural).
Galatians 5:22 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
Details matter.
Start studying the details of the book, a book of details, instead of your "church" SOF.
A disheartening verse to compliment your point is (2 Peter 2:21)
According to this verse... it is better to be an Atheist of sorts than to know Him and then obfuscate His DBR and (John 3:16).
Lon
Well-known member
No, rather I'm talking about nature. Whether a believer produces fruit doesn't change the tree. For me: the parable of the unfruitful tree Luke 13:6-9; 23:39-43 and coupled with it, ideas like Ephesians 2:10 Hebrews 12:5-14 1 John 3:3, there is just no way that isn't eventually going to happen. It isn't that you or I couldn't fail. It is rather the Lord Jesus Christ cannot.
Well, before this additional comment, I agreed with everything. On this, I'd rephrase if you'd allow: "The moment the Lord Jesus Christ saves a person" rather than a person's belief. It may seem a bit nitpicky, in my thinking, the gospel is about the Lord Jesus Christ having a hold of me, rather than so much me having a hold of Him. 1 John 5:12 has it as we have a hold of Him, but only in Christ are we new creations.
I know a couple of guys who have told me they are into 'fire-insurance' and have no intention of following the Lord Jesus Christ, by their own words. They rather prayed the prayer. I have no idea how to respond to that guy and the others like him. Luther said to 'sin boldly' but was he talking about something like this as well? For me, a great comfort is not so much that I called upon Him, but that He prepared and responded: He has a hold of me.
By another example, I have a couple of friends on TOL that others would think: "What????" Others don't see their fruit. I see it. One of them taught me grace undeserved is grace indeed. Another, that I should love the Lord God my Savior, Jesus Christ and give Him praise and honor only worthy of His Holy Name. I tend to see fruit where another may not. Maybe they don't even see it in themselves. The parable of the sheep and goats has many questioning "when Lord? Where did I do this Lord?"
It may be that one could desire the gift, rather than the Giver. Perhaps that one is saved as though escaping through flames, but isn't he/she the sad one? I'm not talking about trying to do for God, like Martha, but rather talking about being with Him, like Mary.
Lon
Well-known member
Lon
Well-known member
I lifted this too from Tambora and AMR
I lifted this too from Tambora and AMR
I lifted this too from Tambora and AMR
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Vital questions unanswered...
Nang
TOL Subscriber
These are not questions; they are demands from you for license to practice sin(s).
If you want to continue living like you have always lived, no one is stopping you.
But just don't call it the "grace" of God.
Right Divider
Body part
Nang the sinless.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
How much fruit demonstrates that one is saved?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Perhaps it's not how much fruit we bear, but the degree of improvement we make before/after salvation that proves our salvation?
So, how much improvement is needed?
Nang... everybody falls short and transgresses on many levels in many ways, moment by moment. He knows our hearts better than we do..
For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even as far as the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrows, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
You are calling His Sin forgiving Blood a "license to sin". This is literally referenced in scripture! It is the same thing as saying He casts out demons by the power of a demon.
We are all equal in God's eyes! Let go of the works trip already! You are literally denying your sola's!
By Faith ......... ALONE
Glory to Christ... ALONE
Scripture......... ALONE
By Grace ......... ALONE
By Christ......... ALONE
IM NOT JOKING... I'm not being sarcastic... I'm sincerely telling you that all of our dirty laundry stinks and Only Jesus has the clean robe. We all depend on that Robe (Gal. 3:27)
You are glorying the fruit! (2 Cor. 12:9). Glory Him and count ALL flesh Loss! (John 6:63)
We are all in this together!
Shasta
Well-known member
This argument may seem unanswerable but really it is the "Fallacy of the Beard" which is:
In the parable of the four seeds, one germinated but was choked out by thorns which Jesus said were lusts and cares of this world. When Jesus spoke this someone could have asked Him "Ah, but Lord, but how many thorns would be too much for the plant?" Regardless of the inability to define exactly "how much was too much" there WAS, in fact, a point when the new life withered and died. The same could be said for the seeds that fell on shallow earth. We could ask "At what point, Lord, would the plant die?" Obviously there WAS such a point or Jesus would not have told the story. This type of argument is not really about defining a point of no return. Rather it seems to be an attempt to establish the proposition that "no amount of sin will ever cause the New Life to die."
The same thing could be said about the question of how much fruit demonstrates that one is saved. Well we do not know exactly though it is certain that there is such a thing as having no fruit, too little fruit, and bearing thorns and thistles instead of fruit. Jesus offers different treatments for each case. The most extreme case is described in the Book of Hebrews:
…7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned (Hebrews 6:7-8).
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Nang
TOL Subscriber
Obviously, you do not grasp the discussion. No one is advocating "perfectionism."
I beg your pardon!
My position is that the grace of God, that pardons all sin, should not be used as a license to practice sin.
My testimony has always been, that repentance and obedience are gifts from God, and not works at all.
You need to read closer and better before injecting your accusations into a thread.
Another accusation. Where do they all come from?
Another empty accusation . . my, my . . who do you represent, anyway?
Here is my Christian advice to those who truly know the grace of God:
"Finally brethren, whatever things are TRUE, whatever things are NOBLE, whatever things are JUST, whatever things are PURE, whatever things are LOVELY, whatever things are of GOOD REPORT; if there is any VIRTUE and if there is anything PRAISEWORTHY . . meditate on these things." Philippians 4:8
The grace of God alone, gifts His spiritual children the heart, minds, will, and capacity to live as instructed above.
Right Divider
Body part
No kidding. And you think that WE do not think this?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Nang
TOL Subscriber
MADists deny any need on their part to repent or obey or learn from historical church/creeds or practice the sacraments or regularly worship with fellow saints.
If I am wrong, please explain where and why that message is coming through on this site . .