ECT How alone is Grace alone salvation?

[Lon]

Take a poll of how many people on TOL believe they can be forgiven and justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ, without work or works of ANY kind whatsoever.

c
Because Musterion is talking about Salvation as an isolated understanding of what saves us, I wholly agree with him.

By contrast, AMR gave me a neat little quip from Martin Luther: "We are saved by faith alone, but a faith that saves is not alone."

Martin Luther believed in Grace alone salvation. If I am true to Reformed doctrine, monergism demands, I believe, a salvation by grace and nothing else, lest I become a synergist in 'keeping' that which is His alone. 2 Timothy 1:12

You've brought up MacArthur and John Piper regarding Lordship salvation. As far as I understand Piper, and I don't fully agree with him, he believes rather one cannot be 'saved' without Our Lord Jesus Christ as Lord. Piper argues that Jesus is Lord, regardless. On that premise, I agree, as do we all. If I am the Lord's I will be disciplined toward His purpose Hebrews 12:5-12 Ephesians 2:10

Rather, MAD so distances from 'works' discussion, that I think a thread where MAD works are on the table, is a topic that may not have taken place on TOL.

 

[Danoh]

How alone is Grace alone salvation?

Christ ALONE dying for our sins - that is "how alone."

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

"Alone" enough for ya?

 

[Nihilo]

Yes but, you need to handle the New Testament's constant attention to works/behavior in order to have a good handle on the theological support of Grace Alone, and that inevitably leads you [back] to Catholicism.

 

[musterion]

By contrast, AMR gave me a neat little quip from Martin Luther: "We are saved by faith alone, but a faith that saves is not alone."

AKA faith plus works. Luther, a conflicted Catholic, contradicted himself. He died believing infant baptism was necessary to salvation.

Sorry Lon, you can't have this both ways.

 

[Lon]

AKA faith plus works. Luther, a conflicted Catholic, contradicted himself. He died believing infant baptism was necessary to salvation.

Sorry Lon, you can't have this both ways.

As far as Luther, agree. As far as works, I'd hope you agree. Ephesians 2:10, to me, is pretty clear that works do take place in a believer, some time in his/her walk. I believe scripture is clear that a new creation produces that which is in keeping with it, not to get or keep salvation, but because of being in Him. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes but, you need to handle the New Testament's constant attention to works/behavior in order to have a good handle on the theological support of Grace Alone, and that inevitably leads you [back] to Catholicism.

Here is what Rome teaches:

"Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions" (Catechism of the Catholic church 2010).​

If a person has to merit for himself "eternal life" then how can eternal life be described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23)? Men receive this gift of eternal life when they "believe," as witnessed by the Lord Jesus' words here:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

We can see the same truth here:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As far as Luther, agree. As far as works, I'd hope you agree. Ephesians 2:10, to me, is pretty clear that works do take place in a believer, some time in his/her walk. I believe scripture is clear that a new creation produces that which is in keeping with it, not to get or keep salvation, but because of being in Him. -Lon

Since the LORD knows the heart of men (1 Ki.8:39) He knows who has true faith and those who don't. To those with true faith He gives eternal life (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, from the moment when a person believes the gospel he is eternally secure.

So regardless if good works are seen in a true believer's life or not he is eternally saved. Good works should accompany salvation but a lack of such works does not prove that someone is not saved.

 

[Lon]

Since the LORD knows the heart of men (1 Ki.8:39) He knows who has true faith and those who don't. To those with true faith He gives eternal life (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, from the moment when a person believes the gospel he is eternally secure.

So regardless if good works are seen in a true believer's life or not he is eternally saved. Good works should accompany salvation but a lack of such works does not prove that someone is not saved.

Luke 13:6-9; 23:39-43 Both are instances of 'no fruit/works,' on some level. It isn't that neither was a new creation, couldn't have been or the thief couldn't have been with the Lord Jesus Christ in paradise. As to the parable, the fruit tree was a new tree with a new nature. I don't believe the time-frame the issue. How could God fail to not cause growth in His new creations??? :idunno: The parable, to me, only makes sense in this light. "Fear" used to drive my understanding of salvation theology. No more.1John 4:18 Thanks Jerry, -Lon

 

[Nang]

MAD so distances from 'works' discussion, that I think a thread where MAD works are on the table, is a topic that may not have taken place on TOL.

The MAD view of "grace alone" for salvation, completely rejects repentance and obedience.

This is a far cry from the Reformed teaching of "Justification by Faith Alone."

I totally believe Sanctification is distinct from Justification, and I also believe both are mongergistic works of God.

However, I do not believe any believer progressing through the "salvation package" does so without manifesting the spiritual evidence and works of the indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees that salvation.

IOW's, Christians are justified by faith alone, and not by works, but the same Christians will lead a sanctified (holy) life of repentance and obedience because God is working His holiness in them. Ephesians 2:10

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

However, I do not believe any believer progressing through the "salvation package" does so without manifesting the spiritual evidence and works of the indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees that salvation.

How much evidence?
How many works?

 

[Nang]

How much evidence?
How many works?

Some is better than none . .

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Some is better than none . .

How much proves that you are saved?

 

[john w]

The MAD view of "grace alone" for salvation, completely rejects repentance and obedience.

MAD, and other Christian denom's, reject your perversion of the gospel of Christ:

"Any person who lives his life wrongly and does not repent of his sins, will be held responsible and judged for breaking God's laws and are justly consigned to death and hell. Sinners only receive what they have earned. Men reap what they sow."-Nang


Let me guess your "response:" Bah.......

 

[Right Divider]

Yes but, you need to handle the New Testament's constant attention to works/behavior in order to have a good handle on the theological support of Grace Alone, and that inevitably leads you [back] to Catholicism.

:hammer:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Luke 13:6-9; 23:39-43 Both are instances of 'no fruit/works,' on some level.

So are you saying that if no fruit comes from a believer then he will no longer be saved?

And you said nothing about what I said previously:

Since the LORD knows the heart of men (1 Ki.8:39) He knows who has true faith and those who don't. To those with true faith He gives eternal life (Jn.5:24). And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, from the moment when a person believes the gospel he is eternally secure.

 

[john w]

However, I do not believe any believer progressing through the "salvation package" does so without manifesting the spiritual evidence and works of the indwelling Holy Spirit that guarantees that salvation.

IOW's, Christians are justified by faith alone, and not by works, but the same Christians will lead a sanctified (holy) life of repentance and obedience because God is working His holiness in them. Ephesians 2:10

Yes, Naggy-we've asked you for years, to break this "manifesting the spiritual evidence and works...sanctified (holy) life of repentance and obedience" down for us.

How much "manifestation?" How much evidence? Define this fuzzy "holy life of repentance and obedience." Specifics. How much obedience?Eternal destinies are at stake. Explain this subjective "good news" to us all.

A "holy life" is (fill in the blank), Naggy.

Should be right there in your SOF.

A Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, some deluded munk, atheist......................... can "manifest" good works.

That makes them "Christian?"

Unpack it for us.


You won't.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Yes, Naggy-we've asked you for years, to break this "manifesting the spiritual evidence and works...sanctified (holy) life of repentance and obedience" down for us.

How much "manifestation?" How much evidence? Define this fuzzy "holy life of repentance and obedience." Specifics. How much obedience?Eternal destinies are at stake. Explain this subjective "good news" to us all.

A "holy life" is (fill in the blank), Naggy.

Should be right there in your SOF.

A Muslim, Buddhist, Catholic, some deluded munk, atheist......................... can "manifest" good works.

That makes them "Christian?"

Unpack it for us.


You won't.

These are important questions that are vital to all of our eternities.
Why won't she answer them?

 

[john w]

How much proves that you are saved?

Yes, Mayor. My mom, who turned 91 a few days ago, and is a "devout" Catholic, most probably evidences more "good works" than most on TOL.

But if she does not shuck reliance on them, as her basis for being acceptable in the presence of a holy LORD God, and instead trust God the Father's provision for her dire condition, as the only solution to the sin/sins problem of mankind, via the dbr of the Lord Jesus Christ, she is headed to hell.


And I told her that. That is what you do, when you love someone. You tell them the truth. And you do not fret about possibly offending them, and fret about being a man pleaser. The bible is a rough book. War is rough. This is a battle for souls....

Galatians 4:16 KJV Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 

[Nang]

How much proves that you are saved?

Your error is considering repentance and obedience to be human good works

Rather, both should be recognized as being fruits of the Holy Spirit.

Christians will evidence the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit by repenting of sin, and will choose to serve the righteousness of God through practicing a holy and obedient lifestyle . . not motivated to earn merit with God, but to bring glory to God.

Anyone who denies the importance of repentance and obedience, and refuses to manifest any fruits of the Holy Spirit, is denying God His due.

 

[john w]

These are important questions that are vital to all of our eternities.
Why won't she answer them?

Yes sir, Mayor. God the Father sent, watched, the most beautiful creature to ever walk the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, and also sent Him to/watched Him be stripped, mocked, have his beard ripped from Him,whipped, bruised/beaten to a pulp, spat at.........so much so, that He was unrecognizable, will not accept any of this self righteous "manifesting the spiritual evidence and works...sanctified (holy) life of repentance and obedience" jazz as a basis.......No He won't. No He won't.


TOL audience-know this.....


No, He won't.