Homeschooling vs. Public Schooling

[BillyBob]

You're not really an authority on maturity BB.

You're not really an authority on homeschooling, commie.

I see that you are, as always, incapable of staying on topic and defending your dopey ideology.

 

[No Worries]

You're not really an authority on homeschooling, commie.

I see that you are, as always, incapable of staying on topic and defending your dopey ideology.

I reasserted my argument over DH and answered Ebenz's response to my initally post....which incidentally validates it as an argument even if Ebenz did not agree with what my argument was.

 

[ebenz47037]

As an adult age doesnt make any difference to me, 21 or 45 whatever - I can speak to them all and relate treating them as equals. To a child it does make a difference. He may talk to an adult maturely but a 5th grader wont hang out with a 10th grader. A child of 13 will look differently on an 18 year old and a 8 year old just because of their age. A 30 year old wont look differently on a 25 or a 35 year old though.

I'll use my daughter as an example. And, since DearDelmar is posting in this thread, he can verify what I'm saying since he's met my daughter. :jessilu: is 16 years old and in the tenth grade. She love hanging around with kids, no matter what their ages. She likes to help out in the nursery at church because she likes babies. She likes to help people out with their three to five year olds. She likes playing with five to twelve year olds. She loves to talk on the phone and the internet to fellow teenagers. She speaks politely to all adults, except me of course. And, she loves to listen to seniors talking about when they were her age (Hell! I still like to do that, myself.). To my daughter, it doesn't matter whether the person looks the same age as she is or not. And, most homeschooled kids that I know feel the same way.

You assume equallity in the work place, to appreciate your colleagues as peers. But for a child to appreciate peers then they have to be brought up amongst them and a child's peers are other children. A child is never equal to an adult. As an adut there are some ways in which I would never react to a mischievous child. If a child aggravates another child then a lesson is invariably learned about crossing the line from a completely different perspective, a lesson from his peers.

A child has to learn to appreciate society as a whole. They cannot be expected to only learn important lessons from their peers. And, I don't know where you're getting that homeschoolers don't interact with their peers, anyway. I've told you, and I've noticed others telling you, that most if not all homeschoolers I know do interact with their peers. They just aren't restricted to one age group for eight hours a day, 180 days a year, for thirteen years.

A child being in a classroom of people its own age is like being in a workplace as an adult with different ages.

That's crap. You sound like my mom's late husband who tried to tell me that my daughter wouldn't grow up healthily without the interaction of bullies, drug dealers/pushers, and gang members in the public school system.

 

[ebenz47037]

You're not really an authority on maturity BB.

From what I've seen, you're not exactly an authority on maturity either. I mean, come on! You're arguing with a teenager, for God's sake!

 

[ebenz47037]

I reasserted my argument over DH and answered Ebenz's response to my initally post....which incidentally validates it as an argument even if Ebenz did not agree with what my argument was.

I'll give you that one. But, that doesn't make you right, either. I know very few people who think that socialization is the most important thing about school. And, most of them are anti-homeschooling.

 

[Lord Vader]

Humans sure are tetchy.

I'm a great unschooling advocate and a radical athiest. xians didn't invent homeschooling; they just jumped on the bandwagon. If you want to understand what it's all about, I recommend the Home Education Magazine, which is also online but you might very well find it at your public library. After that I recommend reading Grace Llewelyn. Also, now I think of it, there are actually schools that don't use coercion (coercion is what makes schools destructive) which you can look at on line here: http://www.sudval.com and then there is John Holt, which you can probably find at the library, at least one or two of the ten books he wrote (John Holt wrote the definitive works on how children, and adults, grow and learn). After that you can read John Taylor Gatto, but if you're a scared conformist (average bear) he might scare you off - he tends to be wordy and difficult but his 7 lesson school teacher essay is right on the money!

Incidentally, college admissions officers actually seek out homeschooled kids. Notre Dame just started accepting them, I hear. There are more of them every year. Eventually we will have the first unschooled generation and the landscape, as a consequence, will be different and it won't be because we petitioned ppl. or used advertisements or made them take classes in something or inacted this or that set of laws. The sad irony is that by this time the third world will have built all of its schools! America is always ahead of the curve because of liberty - which a lot of folks are happy to let slip through their fingers...

Now see, ya got me started. I don't try to convince the unconverted because you just can't. They have an emotional stake in their position. Or as my friend Max Planck once told me, "a new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it".

 

[Delmar]

Homeschooled then I take it.

Kids learn how to relate with their peers in a work environment. An adult is not a peer to a child, it is a figure of authority at best, someone they shouldnt talk to at worst. The arguement was not "its not an assumption" it was something else, its still posted. And the argument I posted is not 'an assumption'.

No, I went to public school 1-12 and 2 years @ Indiana University. I have, however, had the privilege of knowing dozens of fine upstanding adults who were home schooled and many children and teenagers who are currently home schooled. For the most part they are a pretty impressive bunch!

 

[Lighthouse]

That is exactly right, Delmar. :up:

Most homeschool kids I've met are much more polite than the public school kids I know. They are usually more mature as well.

Amen!

 

[No Worries]

From what I've seen, you're not exactly an authority on maturity either. I mean, come on! You're arguing with a teenager, for God's sake!

Thats exactly my point. I was asked to come and partake by DH himself. I treat him as an adult and he has little to say. However people look down on me because I treat him as a peer. Adults don't treat children as peers: "You're arguing with a teenage, for God's sake!"

Treat him like a peer and he doesn't cope. Treat him like a peer and the other adults condemn me for it. Point is Ebenz you're right. I'm treating him like a peer and quite evidently he and others can't cope with it and being amongst people that aren't of his age group aren't his peers. He does not relate on a level playing field...people cut him slack, just as you show. Kids in the playground/classroom wouldnt. Nor would people in a workplace in adult life. But at whatever age he joins the workplace and when he is considered an adult/equal by his colleagues, he's going to be in at the deepend regarding relating to others on a level playing filed.

I have behaved maturely and reservedly at all times. Now that my point has been made (and indirectly conceded by yourself), that one cannot consider someone homeschooled as interacting at the same level with their peers then I shall take on what you have said.

No more arguing with teenagers.

 

[No Worries]

I'll give you that one. But, that doesn't make you right, either. I know very few people who think that socialization is the most important thing about school. And, most of them are anti-homeschooling.

And like Ive said before if I were in your position then I too would probably homeschool. That said if there was the choice between a good school and homeschooling the good school would win every time. I'm not saying socialization is the most important thing, but its one of them. There is a difference between saying homeschooling is the ideal preference and saying homeschooling is making the best of a bad deal.

If the local school provided both excellent tuition and socialisation amongst one's peers then it wins over just excellent tuition (which is not necessarily even the case with homeschoolers...it obvioulsy depends on who is doing the homeschooling) and excellent socialisation (which might not be the case with a local school but the socialisation aspect can certainly be enforced to make it safe).


To simply state that homeschooling is ideal is what I contest. Its not. Education and socialisation in a neutral dominion is.

 

[Lord Vader]

And like Ive said before if I were in your position then I too would probably homeschool. That said if there was the choice between a good school and homeschooling the good school would win every time. I'm not saying socialization is the most important thing, but its one of them. There is a difference between saying homeschooling is the ideal preference and saying homeschooling is making the best of a bad deal.

If the local school provided both excellent tuition and socialisation amongst one's peers then it wins over just excellent tuition (which is not necessarily even the case with homeschoolers...it obvioulsy depends on who is doing the homeschooling) and excellent socialisation (which might not be the case with a local school but the socialisation aspect can certainly be enforced to make it safe).


To simply state that homeschooling is ideal is what I contest. Its not. Education and socialisation in a neutral dominion is.

Why do you think kids need to be "schooled"?

 

[ebenz47037]

Thats exactly my point. I was asked to come and partake by DH himself. I treat him as an adult and he has little to say. However people look down on me because I treat him as a peer. Adults don't treat children as peers: "You're arguing with a teenage, for God's sake!"

Treat him like a peer and he doesn't cope. Treat him like a peer and the other adults condemn me for it. Point is Ebenz you're right. I'm treating him like a peer and quite evidently he and others can't cope with it and being amongst people that aren't of his age group aren't his peers. He does not relate on a level playing field...people cut him slack, just as you show. Kids in the playground/classroom wouldnt. Nor would people in a workplace in adult life. But at whatever age he joins the workplace and when he is considered an adult/equal by his colleagues, he's going to be in at the deepend regarding relating to others on a level playing filed.

I have behaved maturely and reservedly at all times. Now that my point has been made (and indirectly conceded by yourself), that one cannot consider someone homeschooled as interacting at the same level with their peers then I shall take on what you have said.

No more arguing with teenagers.

First, I didn't know that DH had invited you to this thread. Second, the only reason I said anything at all about you're not acting mature was because you said something to BillyBob about his not acting mature. I know. Really mature of me. Right?

I'm not asking you to cut DH some slack. From what I've seen, he's been holding his own. I was just pointing out that, while arguing/debating a teenager, you shouldn't be complaining about someone else's maturity. You know the saying, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks."

 

[Delmar]

Thats exactly my point. I was asked to come and partake by DH himself. I treat him as an adult and he has little to say. However people look down on me because I treat him as a peer. Adults don't treat children as peers: "You're arguing with a teenage, for God's sake!"

Treat him like a peer and he doesn't cope. Treat him like a peer and the other adults condemn me for it. Point is Ebenz you're right. I'm treating him like a peer and quite evidently he and others can't cope with it and being amongst people that aren't of his age group aren't his peers. He does not relate on a level playing field...people cut him slack, just as you show. Kids in the playground/classroom wouldnt. Nor would people in a workplace in adult life. But at whatever age he joins the workplace and when he is considered an adult/equal by his colleagues, he's going to be in at the deepend regarding relating to others on a level playing filed.

I have behaved maturely and reservedly at all times. Now that my point has been made (and indirectly conceded by yourself), that one cannot consider someone homeschooled as interacting at the same level with their peers then I shall take on what you have said.

No more arguing with teenagers.

Nobody was looking down on you because treat him "as a peer"! I think Nori was actually pointing out that a teenager was holding his own against you in debate. I have read every post that Dread has written since you joined the thread and I have no clue where you got the idea he could not cope.

Oh, by the way, you either missed or ignored post #157

I raised a significant and relevant point and acting spoiled over it won't help your cause.

Was this the significant and relevant point you raised?

To say that you have the same integration with your peers as someone who goes to school is just wrong. With hindsight (something you don't have DreadHelm), you are missing out.

You did nothing to show how his integration is lacking nor did you explain how he is missing out. Without doing so your point does not seem too significant or relevant. At this point I highly doubt that DreadHelm is to concerned about your critique of his debating skills.

 

[No Worries]

First, I didn't know that DH had invited you to this thread. Second, the only reason I said anything at all about you're not acting mature was because you said something to BillyBob about his not acting mature. I know. Really mature of me. Right?

I'm not asking you to cut DH some slack. From what I've seen, he's been holding his own. I was just pointing out that, while arguing/debating a teenager, you shouldn't be complaining about someone else's maturity. You know the saying, "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks."

My maturity isnt compromised no matter who I talk to. The way someone communicates compromises their maturity. BB has been behaving childishly. I'm not in the proverbial glass house. Clicking on my profile and listing my recent posts and then doing the same for BB illustrates my point.

 

[No Worries]

DD, my point was obviously valid because Ebenz and I have gone over it. We don't agree but it was evidently a valid argument. Saying it is not so after the event is redundant. It was valid, we had the discussion regarding it.

Regarding DH he made a drop in appearance against me and then left. The one point that I made was shown to be valid as Ebenz came along and picked the ball up and ran with it. I don't agree entirely with her but a discussion was had. DH and I never had that discussion. But like I have said, my point there has been made. He can't be a peer for reasons already given, despite my trying to treat him as such.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing and I won't be drawn into it. Its not productive.

 

[JoyfulRook]

Which is valid. No matter how much he claims to integrate with others, the public schooled kids do more. He socialises at the church etc....so do the public school kids on top of what they do.

When (in your opinion) is there enough socialization?

Its when BB said, "Dread didn't have to worry about meeting drug dealers in the hallway." like the solution is to deal with the problem by taking the KIDS out of the school. Now that is a liberal attitude. Deal with the problem by taking the dealers out of the school and teaching the kids about drugs and their effects.

That's just one of many reasons that homeschooling is better. It is not like parents are taking their kids out of Public Schools because of drug dealers at school alone.

An important part of growing up is learning about working within a group.

How do homeschoolers not learn to work in a group?

OEJ doesn't seem to think that kids talk when lining up, eating food or in the classroom, going to and from school. You know what they dont just talk, but they joke and fight, rip on one another and make out. I'm guessing OEJ must have been homeschooled as well because he seems oblivious to this.

As far as I know, OEJ wasn't homeschooled.

Sure I can when I spot his behaviour. And when I talk from experience from other homeschooled kids. I can quite clearly say that DH is missing out on interacting with his peers. Some might say he is a nice kid, and I wish him all the best, but sorry if he carried that attitude in school he'd be torn apart by the other kids. Church kids might not do it, nor might the debating team but not many schools are made up of just church kids and debating team kids, there usually a few other sorts too.

Trust me, I've dealt with most types.

Look at how he deals with confrontation by calling names, same as BB and a few others.

:ha: I only call names when you deserve them.

He's learning from his peers, but his peers are here are not his own age.

I have friends of all ages!

He calls himself homophobic and fanatical.

I've been indoctrinated well.

Yet he is still a child.

:squint: :chuckle:

You want to call yourself Christian....go and learn the world's religions first and then at the end of it decide if you're a Christian.

I've studied the world's religions. From a Christian worldview.

Want to call yourself homophobic, go and be a heterosexual and then meet some gay people, then call yourself a homophobe.

I've met fags. I know all about homosexuality from a Christian worldview.

Want to say you hate certain types of people....go and travel the world and meet all types of people.

There's only a few certain types of people I hate. And they're not ethnic groups. I'm not a racist. I only hate Idiots, :Commie:s, and God-haters.

As it is you're being sheltered.

Is shelter a good thing?

 

[JoyfulRook]

Regarding DH he made a drop in appearance against me and then left. The one point that I made was shown to be valid as Ebenz came along and picked the ball up and ran with it. I don't agree entirely with her but a discussion was had. DH and I never had that discussion. But like I have said, my point there has been made. He can't be a peer for reasons already given, despite my trying to treat him as such.

So you forfeit?

 

[kmoney]

NoWorries, did you miss my post in response to you? :noid:

but anyway, here are some more thoughts (not necessarily directed at NW)....

First off, I agree with NoWorries that socialization is an important. I also don't think anyone is denying that though.

Secondly, I used to believe the same thing NoWorries did. I thought of homeschooled kids are weird, nerdy types that were kinda socially awkward and the couple homeschooled kids I did meet kinda fit that description. Despite that, anyone should know that personal experience is rarely a good basis for making generalizations.

Thirdly, it seems that NoWorries is sorta making a concession for the American public schooling system, but still says an ideal public school is better than homeschooling.

Fourthly, I think debating about Public Schools vs. Homeschooling in the area of socialization is hard. There is no real objective way to "grade" the student. In the area of academics, (which could easily be argued is more important than socialization in schooling) you can measure a child's growth by testing. What can you do to assess socialization? You can put two children in the same situation and see how they interact wtih people. You could then judge them and say one is more well-adjusted than the other, but something like that isn't really objective. I think it comes down to NoWorries saying homeschooling is worse because it "makes sense" that interaction with peers in school is necessary to become "well-adjusted" and may even point to some personal experiences. Then the other side says that it isn't necessary and points to their personal experiences.


NoWorries, I have a question: You don't seem to be denying that homeschoolers do get interaction with peers, so why do you feel that interaction in a school is so important? Is it just a case of, "the more the better"?
Why is an ideal school better than an ideal homeschool? What is missing in the homeschool that the public school has?

 

[No Worries]

NoWorries, I have a question: You don't seem to be denying that homeschoolers do get interaction with peers, so why do you feel that interaction in a school is so important? Is it just a case of, "the more the better"?
Why is an ideal school better than an ideal homeschool? What is missing in the homeschool that the public school has?

First of all mate yes I did miss your other post ( I think...I'll go back and look, I may have responded to it but not directly if you know what I mean.)


Regarding your questions here:
Pretty much yes, more is better. But not only that there is a different environment in school. Interacting on a sports playing field is different that than interacting in a classroom. Working with an authoritarian figure who is not a parent alongside other peers in a work environment is different to a bible class. If you go to soccer practice then everybody there is there to do soccer. Its not the same in the classroom. Some people hate French some people do well at Math. There's more of a learning about others failings and strengths. It establishes tolerance and appreciating strengths and weaknesses of your peers. There's nothing stopping a school kid from doing bible class and soccer practice etc. etc. but essentially he always has an extra pool of socialising. The playground, lunch times, classrooms, even going to and from school. A child away from a parent I feel passes on a sense of independence.

But just because a child is schooled away from home doesn't mean that a parent stops being a parent. A parent still teaches manners and extra studying, extra curriculum events, helps out with homework, gets involved.

I feel a significant reason why homeschool kids do better academically is because invariably they come from better homes. If a parent cares enough to take their kid out of school and to actually teach them then I don't think that that same parent would not show any less interest if the child went to a good school. Manners would still be taught, extra learning would still be provided, extra curricula activities would still be persued. I firmly believe that a homeschool child who excells at homeschooling would do even better if in an adequate school.

One issue that I have is this. I personally have qualifications in history. I'm also pretty good at maths and have been involved in my own business. When it came down to teaching a child I know I could teach history to whatever level that child requires. I'd also fancy my chances at maths and business studies. I may need to brush up on the actual curriculum but teaching the subject not a problem. I also got an A in French at school but I'm not a natural at French. I know that if my child were a natural at French, although I my be able to teach her enough to pass French that I would also be passing on some of my now many mistakes. But if she's a natural at it she shouldnt just be passing she should go beyond that. If she were a natural at history and she was capable of it Id push her as far as she could go. And because Ihave a background in it I would be able to do that but I would never be able to do the same in French. The natural response to this is tutors - get a French tutor to cover your weaknesses. And I have 2 issues with this. First of all sometimes you don't know what you are teaching is flawed. Unless you have significant background that goes beyond the grading level you cant be sure. You may be teaching something in error unbeknown to yourself and compounding an existing problem.

Secondly its not just French. You might be fabulous and qualified at teaching say 2 or 3 subjects. That still leaves another dozen or so subjects that need to be covered. At high school I got grades in Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Maths, History, French, Latin, Information Technology, English Literature, English Language. I at one point also studied German, Geology, Geography, Art, Music, R.E. , P.E. and a few others but I chose the above subjects to receive grades in. There's no way if I were homeschooling could I offer so much width of study and the depth. We're not talking about one or two tutors needed, its four or five multi-tasked ones at least. I may like to read but if my child showed a natural ability to do very well at English Literature then there is no way I'd not get her a teacher in English Lit with a relevant degree to coach her. I hold my hands up Id defdintiely need to get a French teacher, if she was gifted in sciences: one of them for sure...too many potholes there for me to fall into when teaching her. And if Im going to end up paying for four or five different tutors at any one point I might as well get some other homeschool/public school kids together and set up my own school.

In summation it is not only the social aspect but also the width and depth to the teaching available in a good school.

That said Ebenz once told me that a week after she'd taken her child out of a school a teacher's ex boyfriend came into the school waving a gun around. Hell thats a no brainer. If I were in that position Id want to know that such a thing could never happen again and if I couldnt get guarantees my child would be getting homeschooled too. It might not be ideal but its realistic. I just think its realistic to demand better of your public services.

 

[kmoney]

First of all mate yes I did miss your other post ( I think...I'll go back and look, I may have responded to it but not directly if you know what I mean.)

Don't feel obligated to go back and respond. Your responses to other people are sufficient. :up: