Home Schooling vs. Public Schooling

[The Barbarian]

the figures you give do not account for the guilt ratio I would assume affects
the testimony of those parents who give "thier" school high marks.
generally all parents think thier school is pretty good, since they do not compare
thier school to any other actual school of a position they respect. The attitude that "my school" is pretty good is common because of the horror stories which have not come true 'to thier understanding' in thier school.

Sounds like a load of codswallop to me. The schools people know best, they like the best. The reasons are obvious.

n example of this would be when children grow up in a society where the poverty level is high in general and the children are surprisingly happy despite the state that you or I would admit is very low quality conditions. They dont realize that eating once a day is a small amount of food because on a regular basis they go without completely. To them, a once a day meal is great! My children would be complaining all day!

Maybe parents consider a safe enviornment in which kids learn well is a good thing. Maybe you're wrong to think it isn't.

Also, the popularity of a system is irrelevant to its value. Comunism has also been a popular system

Horsepucky. It's just the opposite with communism. With public schools, the people closest to them like them the best. The most convinced anticommunists will always be found living in a communist state. Why do you think they have to put up walls to keep them in?

Yet , somehow, be it pride or just plain social deception
generally the people in communist societies say they are satisfied to happy with thier government.

That seems a little odd, considering Cubans by the thousands brave drowning by fleeing that nation in rickety boats, so they can come to America, or that thousands of East Germans risked death to get past the wall into the Federal Republic. I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about.

you also mentioned grades. I have been told that many public school teacher grade on a curve and teach toward test in order to achieve a higher grade average for thier class.

Someone's been abusing your trust in them. The standardized tests are run by each state, and teachers don't even know what's in them until afterwards. They do teach to the state standards, which is what should be done. But they can't teach to the test, because they don't know what's in it.

Also, when a straight A student goes to college they must first take tests to show thier actual achievement level since the grade they achieved in the school may not accurately reflect thier understanding very well because of these as well as other factors.

There's a lot more on the SAT then there used to be, including a writing portion. Good thing. And most of our kids are up to it.

 

[Aimey]

I guess we've been readin' different information then.
the example I gave of comunism brings to mind a woman
who is a missionary in vietnahm whom our church supports.

she reports that many of the people do not trust the missionaries
because the government has convinced them that they are there
to trick them into turning against their country. They are largely
unaware of how bad things really are for them because of this type of
government propaganda.

if you hadnt noticed , many Americans are jumping ship as well.
from the school system for starters as well as those who are
becoming more and more opposed to our own democracy. Cubans
aren't the only ones who get greener grass syndrome , it just so happens
that the grass IS greener over here and SOME of the people hope
the rumor is true. yet this is not an example of the blindness I am speaking of.

I wonder what the attitude of the people or germany was towards thier
government when Hitler was in power. Ill bet that the huge majority said they had
a great country and a great government. Nobody would want to live in Cuba.

that would be the example of the 'worst school' comparrison, where people can say , "Oh, my school is pretty good." (that is compared to Cuba)

funny your mind automatically goes to the scapegoat

 

[The Barbarian]

I guess we've been readin' different information then.

It might be good to get out and see what's actually happening. There's no question that people under communism are largely disaffected.

...missionary in vietnahm whom our church supports.

she reports that many of the people do not trust the missionaries
because the government has convinced them that they are there
to trick them into turning against their country. They are largely
unaware of how bad things really are for them because of this type of
government propaganda.

As you might know, there are a number of Christian denominations in Vietnam, run by the Vietnamese themselves. How would you feel, if some Vietnamese came here and told you they were going to save you?

if you hadnt noticed , many Americans are jumping ship as well.

Doesn't seem like "many." And a lot of them, when they see the results, come back to private or public schools.

funny your mind automatically goes to the scapegoat

It's true of all communist states. People are trying to get out of China, Korea, Cuba, and used to flee East Germany and the old Soviet Empire.

Perhaps you're too young to remember the guys braving a hail of bullets to make the run in Berlin.

 

[Aimey]

You are right my history is not the best but I still think you are wrong
in you thinking that the schools are good merely because those who attend
them SAY they are good. People will always defend thier own position
espeacially when they are enduring guilt.

Every person I have talked with who homeschools or has homeschooled
or has removed thier child from the public school for a private school has
stated that they are glad they did so. Sadly there are the few who quit
and send thier children back for the latter part of thier education but the
testimony I hear from them is either that they are sorry they did so or
they felt they had no choice. Not one has testified to to higher quality
of the public school than to the alternative.

 

[The Barbarian]

You are right my history is not the best but I still think you are wrong
in you thinking that the schools are good merely because those who attend
them SAY they are good.

That's just one bit of evidence. But it's pretty good evidence. People aren't stupid. They know when things are working, and when they are not. The revelation that American schools are better in math and science than most other nations is also pretty good evidence. And the fact that schools are safer for kids than almost anyplace else is pretty good evidence.

People will always defend thier own position
espeacially when they are enduring guilt.

Is that why you are defending your position?

Every person I have talked with who homeschools or has homeschooled
or has removed thier child from the public school for a private school has
stated that they are glad they did so.

And the vast majority of America parents who chose public schools are glad they did so. Perhaps it's true that no matter how good something is, a few won't like it.

Not one has testified to to higher quality of the public school than to the alternative.

Perhaps not, but reality, a much sterner judge, has. The list of those who have achieved greatness in the last 50 years is remarkably short of homeschooled people.

 

[Aimey]

States Get Poor Grades on Closing Achievement Gaps
By Linda Jacobson



Despite the attention focused on poor and minority students by the federal No Child Left Behind Act, most states are doing a poor job of narrowing achievement gaps, concludes a “report card” released last week.

Issued by the Washington-based Thomas B. Fordham Foundation, a conservative-leaning think tank, the report gives states an average grade of D on student achievement. It argues that progress has been negligible since the 1983 release of A Nation at Risk, the landmark report warning of a “rising tide of mediocrity” in American public schools.

For More Info
"The Fordham Report 2006: How Well Are States Educating Our Neediest Children?" is available from the Thomas B. Fordham Foundation. “Student achievement in the U.S. remains essentially flat even as the demands of a 21st-century economy stiffen and the education systems of other lands outpace ours,” the report says. “The U.S. urgently needs to become a nation in which every child learns to his or her full potential between kindergarten and 12th grade.”

Like Education Week’s annual Quality Counts report, Fordham’s report—which the authors describe as “unabashedly judgmental”—gives states letter grades, but it uses different indicators.

Each state received a student-achievement grade, based primarily on results from the 2005 National Assessment of Educational Progress in reading, mathematics, and science for African-American students, Hispanic students, and those from low-income families. Children from those groups on average trail on standardized tests compared with their white and Asian peers.

A quarter of the grade was also calculated using high school graduation rates for African-Americans, Hispanics, and children from low-income families, as well as statewide passing rates on Advanced Placement tests for students from those groups.

Of the 50 states, most made D’s, three made F’s, and six had insufficient data for the foundation to calculate a grade.

Limited Headway
A new "report card" finds states have made too little progress in raising achievement by African-American, Hispanic, and low-income students.


SOURCE: Thomas B. Fordham Foundation The report was originally released Oct. 25, but was withdrawn from the group’s Web site after errors in data were discovered. Still, the recalculations led to only minor changes.

In a press release, foundation President Chester E. Finn Jr. said the results dispute some of the rhetoric from state leaders about improving student performance.

“Many state officials have claimed credit for gains in student achievement,” he said. “But this study casts doubt on many such claims. In reality, no state has made the kind of progress that’s required to close America’s vexing achievement gaps and help all children prepare for life in the 21st century. Nor are most states making the bold reforms most likely to change this reality.”

Gloria Dopf, the Nevada education department’s deputy superintendent of instruction, research, and evaluative services, said she understands that researchers don’t have much choice but to use NAEP when comparing states. But the report ignores improvements in student performance on Nevada’s tests, which are aligned with NAEP, she argued.

“We do have performance gaps, but we are systemically working on those gaps, unlike the Fordham article indicated,” she said. “[The report] was very harsh, and not really reflecting some of the strategies and reform initiatives in the state.”

‘No-Nonsense Reforms’
States also received an “education reform” grade, which focuses on state efforts in the areas of curriculum content, standards-based reform, and school choice. In those areas, states don’t look so bad. The average score is C-minus, and three states—Arizona, California, and New Mexico—even received a B-minus.

To some extent, the states scoring near the top in the education reform category—California, Georgia, Massachusetts, and New York, for example—are among the same ones that ranked near the top in the foundation’s “State of State Standards” report, issued in August.

In the profile on California, the state scores points from Fordham for leading the nation in the number of charter schools in operation, hiring alternatively certified teachers, and eliminating bilingual education.

“If the no-nonsense reforms currently in place retain their stature in the state’s education establishment, the state’s school system could, in a few years, become a source of pride instead of the punch line for a bad joke,” the report says.

Hilary McLean, a spokeswoman for the California education department, said state officials were pleased that Fordham recognized “our high standards,” but added that working on closing the achievement gaps will be a major focus of the department over the next year.

Vermont, which the report called the “cellar dweller,” was the only state to receive an F for education reform. The report cites the state’s opposition to charter schools and a high school exit exam.

“In this small state of less than 600,000 people, 97 percent of whom are white, the idea that schools must be ‘reformed’ does not go down well with folks,” the authors write.

The report, which the foundation plans to issue annually, concludes by saying that even though some people are looking to the federal government to improve achievement among poor and minority students, the responsibility rests ultimately with the states—“every one of which has constitutionally obligated itself to educate its citizens, every one of which has created a ‘system’ for carrying out that obligation, every one of which sets most of the ground rules by which that system operates, and almost every one of which provides the lion’s share of the funding for that system.”

(This is one article I found just looking in general for achievement information)
(This article relates to minorities , and children from low income families)

 

[Aimey]

more ACTUAL achievement comparisons

more ACTUAL achievement comparisons

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2007/2007006_2.pdf

I hope this works since it is a long article and I cant seem to paste it
from this link to the forum, but this one compares the achievement
scores of US students vs the 'G8 countries' in relation to thier financial
status and the effect of lack of effect that has on the success of their
educational system in terms of 'product'.

in this case the product being a well educated child.

 

[Aimey]

homeschool vs public school academic achievement

homeschool vs public school academic achievement

:up: http://nche.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

 

[Aimey]

crime satistics for 2006

crime satistics for 2006

:devil: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/:devil:

from National Center for Education Statistics

I doubt that the schools had this rate of violence in the 50's
and homeschoolers have no such violence rate, period!:turbo:


(my son wanted to see that turbo smiley)

 

[The Barbarian]

From your link:

The victimization rate1 of students ages 12–18 at school2 declined from 73 victimizations per 1,000 students in 2003 to 55 victimizations in 2004.

Declines in crime like this, in public schools, is why they are now safer there than at home.

And yes, things were rougher in the 50s. "Blackboard jungle" wasn't just a movie. Far as I know, they didn't keep statistics on school violence then; it was pretty much treated as child abuse was; kept under cover.

But if you have some verifiable statistics that show it wasn't a problem then, I'd be interested in seeing them.

 

[Aimey]

oh! so your word is beleivable without statistics, but the assumption
that the reason there were no reports of violent crime rates in the schools
at the time may mean that there was less crime then, is unbeleivable to you?

this is what I mean by people backing up thier choices by imaginary facts.

 

[The Barbarian]

oh! so your word is beleivable without statistics, but the assumption
that the reason there were no reports of violent crime rates in the schools
at the time may mean that there was less crime then, is unbeleivable to you?

As you know, there were no reports of child molestation rates in the general population then. But we now know it was disturbingly common. Lack of evidence is not evidence you are right. It just means there is no way to support the argument that violence in schools was lower than it is now.

this is what I mean by people backing up thier choices by imaginary facts.

Unless you can suppport your contention with checkable stats, you are indeed presenting "imaginary facts."

 

[Aimey]

your assertion that child molestation was rampant with no statistics is
ridiculous considering the challenge you give me!

I am to find information that doesnt exist ,(because it doesnt), to prove that there was virtually no crime rate in schools in the '50s compared to today.

yet , you are able to accuse countless parents and caregivers of the '50s
of molesting children , merely by your assumption that 'people just didn't
report that stuff back then.'

that is a 'bit' hypocritical.

 

[The Barbarian]

your assertion that child molestation was rampant with no statistics is
ridiculous considering the challenge you give me!

We have many, many cases no coming to light. The people who were molested as children didn't go away. And now, they are for the first time, safely coming forward, even though they still get a lot of pain from people who don't want to admit what happened.

I am to find information that doesnt exist ,(because it doesnt), to prove that there was virtually no crime rate in schools compared to today.

If we have no evidence one way or another, we can neither conclude it was common nor conclude it was absent.

yet , you are able to accuse countless parents and caregivers of the '50s
of molesting children

It turns out that it was happening a lot, but that families tended to cover it up. That's not an accusation; that's what happened.

merely by your assumption that 'people just didn't
report that stuff back then.'

Fortunately, many of those so abused are now speaking up.

That is a 'bit' hypocritical.

For some of them, it's the first step to recovery. Denial of the sort you're expressing is part of the problem.

 

[Joe Roberts]

I would say a lot of these families that home school do so to cover the fact that there children are abused.

 

[The Barbarian]

I would think that they are in the minority. In the Dallas area, in the last two years, I can think of only four cases in the news, and three of them were in the same family.

Physical, rather than sexual abuse might be more common. CPS, a few years ago, shut down a fundamentalist "boys ranch" because of discpline so violent that the children needed medical attention.

 

[Joe Roberts]

I would think that they are in the minority. In the Dallas area, in the last two years, I can think of only four cases in the news, and three of them were in the same family.

Physical, rather than sexual abuse might be more common. CPS, a few years ago, shut down a fundamentalist "boys ranch" because of discpline so violent that the children needed medical attention.

Physical or sexual, I'm sure it goes on.

 

[Aimey]

oh dear!

the cases you speak of in regard to molested children in the 50's
are not cases of crime in the public school to begin with,yet even they
are not less common today necessarily. The people who will do such
terrible things are also not the sort to devote thier lives to educating thier
children. Also, the fact that they did not report thier abuse at the time
evidence that it was more common back then, since children are just as
prone today not to report thier molestation. We should make the bulk
of our judgements in regard to crime on the reported crime and avoid
assumptions based on historical guesses.
I would say you dont know any , or very few homeschoolers if you think
that thier motivation for staying home to educate thier children is that
they can no beat and molest them at will. those children in the public
school suffer a much higher rate of abuse AT HOME than those who are
homeschooled. that statistic is unarguably true.

I think you will beleive what ever you want to believe which excuses you from
admitting to the failure of the current system.

 

[Aimey]

*homeschooling is great, period.

*homeschooling is great, period.

:dizzy:


*This report shows independant academic evidence of homeschooling sucess.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

*This report evidences the eventual success of a finished home education.
(that is not to say that these people are 'finished' with thier education
as you will see in the link)
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/Beyond.asp

*This lovely assortment of bargraphs and such, evidence the success of
homeschoolers in multiple areas including achievement tests, success regardless
of parent education, success despite government regulation or lack of it,success
of minority homeschooled students, success regardless of gender, and statistics
for social involvement.
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/comp2001/HomeSchoolAchievement.pdf

*Here is general positive info on homeschooling.
http://www.nheri.org/content/view/199/

these are not all..............but my post is getting too long sooooooooooo

 

[Aimey]

*Here are a not so lovely few reasons NOT to send your child to public school. These reports can be accessed at this address:
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b79d90c747c.htm.................

A few reasons why some parents might consider leaving public schools:


STUDENT SEX ABUSE RUNS RAMPANT (At least one child is sexually abused by a school employee every day in NYC)
Teacher's Union President Arrested For CHILD PORN Broward County, Florida (They Hate The Boy Scouts)

Ex-teacher accepts maximum sentence. Man, teen met for sex nine times since plea entered

Homosexual Teacher Trying to Hide What She Told Students at Fistgate

Eastchester Teacher Now a She

Orleans teacher booked in death

Community discusses transexual teacher

STUDENT-SEX TEACHER STILL IN CLASS

Complaint Dismissed--"Transgendered" Teacher Still Free to Use Restroom of His Choice

SEX CHARGES: Teacher enters guilty plea

Sex-crimes trial of teacher delayed

'Sex educator' sues parent

TEACHER'S AIDE BEDDED BOYS: COPS

Miffed mom says teach assigned porn book (sodomy and bestiality)

NEW CHARGES ROCK ED BOARD (mentally ill psychiatrist hired as teacher)

TEACHER GUILTY IN TEEN-SEX RAP (And Gets A Slap On the Wrist)

Mother States Her Case Vs. Video Peeping Toms (Male kindergarten Teacher tapes girls undressing for swim class)

Pornography charges filed against teacher

Guilty Plea in HS Sex Assault : Teen says he acted as lookout as pals sodomized girl

NEW SEX FUROR IN SCHOOL

TEACHER ACCUSED IN BOMB THREAT SPEAKS

New York School Sex Attacks Quadruple U.S. Rate [ten attacks per week]

Alleged sex with coach sparks civil lawsuit

Grand jury charges teacher with 261 sex crimes over year

CHILD PORN FOUND ON CLASSROOM COMPUTER (8th teacher arrested this year in NV for sex offense)

High school teacher arrested for allegedly sodomizing student, 15

PROSECUTOR: BX. TEACHER MOLESTED MORE KIDS

Laughlin teacher arrested on child porn allegations

Teacher Aide Accused of Sex Offense

Teacher Charged With Making Bomb Threat

QNS. TEACHER FACES STUDENT-SODOMY RAP

High school teacher arrested for allegedly sodomizing student, 15

Bronx Teacher Indicted

Panel Upholds Disciplinary Action Against Teacher for Sexual Imagery

TEACHER FORCED ME TO CROSS-DRESS: B'KLYN TEEN

Parents Rip Teacher In Sex Case

Teachers Sometimes Run Teens' Wild Cancun Trips

HOW CITY BUNGLED 'SEX TEACHER' CASE

Teacher Fired for Flashing Sstudent

(female)California teacher fired after taking off shirt in class

COPS: HIV-POSITIVE TEACHER RAPED BOY, 9

Teacher Of Teens Involved In Sexual Assault Fired (NYC)

Teachers to stand trial for allegedly accepting cut-rate groceries for grades

DeKalb teacher faces sex charge

Cops: Girl Sodomized at NY School

3 pre-schoolers found on playground trying to inflate used condom

Elementary Schoolteacher Seizes Bibles Given as Gifts

NEA Chief Endorses Gay Activism In Schools

Kindergartner Wanders Off From School, Found Nearly Two Miles Away (Fruitport, MI)

Teacher-Student Sex Charges Rock School

Three Teachers Accused of Relationships With Teen Girls at Suburban School

Psychiatrist Now A Teacher, Despite Felonies

Students: Teacher Threatened To Shoot Us

Special Ed Student Beaten By Teacher

Female teacher accused of sex with 13-year-old boy while friend watched

Substitute teacher fired for allegedly taping girl's mouth shut

Teachers Union Plans To Take Up Homosexual Resolution

3rd Woodstock teacher suspended/Investigation into teacher-student relationships

Schools Harass Christians, Coddle Other Faiths (Muslims allowed to pray in NYC schools, Christians are not)

State worker arrested on exposure complaint

Teacher Hit Over Class Sex Games

Police, teachers are defrauding housing programs, investigators say

Kids Get Graphic Instruction in Homosexual Sex (in Massachusetts school)

Part-time Howell driving teacher is charged in road rage incident: pulled a loaded .357

Teacher Accused of Drug Trade

NYC teacher at "School of Environmental Studies" accused of raping young girls

Ex-teacher marries student he was convicted of molesting after 4 years in prison

TEACHER'S AIDE RAMS SCHOOL WITH CAR ( FL)

N.J. Teacher Charged With Assault (on students)

Dismissed teachers listed by state agency (Oklahoma)

Male Art Teacher's Now a She

OREGON TEACHER HELD IN INTERNET SEX STING

TWO NYC teachers arrested: One for assault, one for cocaine.
HOMOSEXUAL TEACHER GROUP TARGETS KINDERGARTNERS

Teachers Learning to Teach Tolerance of Homosexuals

Harlem Teacher Is Charged With Selling Drugs From Car

Jury Finds Former Teacher Guilty of Lewd Molestation

Teacher in child sex sting sentenced

School teacher snatches purse

Teachers instructed in 'gay' inclusion

It's a Fact: Teachers Are Typically the Dregs

Teacher gets 4 years in prison

First-Grade Teacher Tells Kids He's Gay.

Teacher suspended after boy is beaten

5th-grade teacher accused of having sex with student

Teacher accused of telling kids to spit on boy

Boy who fathered kids with Teacher sues City!

Teacher's motive in self-shooting questioned

Teacher now admits shooting self in class

Teacher, 29, faces jail time for affair with student, 14

Student teachers told to visit homosexual bars as part of a multicultural education course

KENTUCKY FIRST-GRADE TEACHER CHARGED WITH PROSTITUTION

Gay School Teacher Accused of Importing Boys for Sex

Gay School Teacher Initially Booked with Almost 400 Counts of Molestation

NM School District Planning to Introduce Pro-Homosexual Materials

Teacher held on charges; Accused of trying to romance girl, 11

Teacher Held In Child Sex Ring

Popular Teacher Accused Of Having Sex With Student Jumps To Death

22-Year Teacher Suspended for Porno Site Viewing

Teacher accused of having sex with 15 year old (ALLENTOWN, Pa.)

NEA vs. home schools/Union opposes nearly every aspect of parent-directed education

Teachers who lost licenses because of sex offenses up 80 percent since 1994

Teacher With Record Is Back In Class (voluntary manslaughter conviction)

Male Teacher Returns to School as a Woman

Ex-Teacher Guilty In Sex Assaults ( 3 years for sexually assaulting two students and a teacher)

Atlanta teacher charged with battery

Brooklyn teacher 'raped' girl, 13, in classroom

ACTIVIST TEACHER ASSIGNS GAY TEENAGE SEX/ROMANCE BOOK TO 15 YEAR-OLDS IN ENGLISH CLASS

Teacher: Soliciting 13-year-old girls is no crime

Teacher Facing Molestation Charges Arrested Again

Teacher charged with sexual assault commits suicide (Yea!!)

Teacher Tapes Cat Feces To Desk

Transsexual teacher fights to keep job

Teacher accused of rape of girl, 12, he met online (not on FR, Cincinnati paper)


:jawdrop: