Help understanding a verse (John 5:18)

[jamie]

The part of the verse that I am questioning is the part where John says Jesus was "making Himself equal with God."

Equal in what way?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Did Jesus say,"I am equal to God"??

No, he did not.

He said he is the son of God. John 10:

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

The question of did Jesus say, "I am equal to God?" is off topic. It is not relevant to my original post for several reasons.

First of all, in John 5:18 John the Apostle tells us himself that Jesus was "making Himself equal with God."

That settles the question of whether or not Jesus did that. John said He did, so He did. (Unless John was confused about something.)

How Jesus did that....what He said or what He did...that is a different question and a whole different topic.

That Jesus did that seems incontrovertible. John tells us Jesus did that.

Second, everything that Jesus said and did was not recorded in the Scriptures. I believe the Scriptures even tell us that explicitly but I'd have to look that up.

All Christians are sons of God, literally,

The Jews considered themselves to be sons of God as well and God as their Father.

Hosea 1:10: "...You are sons of the living God."
Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son."
Deuteronomy 32:6: "...Is He not your Father who bought you?"

they are born again of God's spirit, I Peter 1:23, I John 3:1-2, Romans 8:14

Are you a Christian? Then you are a son of God.

Are you God? or a son of God?

Since God is your Father, to you exercise the right to go to your Father whenever you want to and need to?

Does being a son in a family give you rights and privileges that outsiders do not enjoy in your family?

Are you a son of your father? Does that make you equal in some respects to your father? Do you expect to eat of the food he worked to purchase? Did your father eat of the food he earned the right to purchase? Did you, even though you did not have the job that paid for it?

Sounds like you had an equality with your father.

How about your Heavenly Father? do you enjoy the blessings of truth, light, love, God's goodness in your life even though you are not the source of any of those things?

If you don't you should, it is your right to do so. It is your obligation to do so.

God is light, you have God' light in your life. You have an equality with God.

Perhaps, but that is not the kind of equality that the Jewish people thought Jesus was claiming. The Jews and Christians could claim the kind of equality that you are talking about and nobody would want to kill them.

Jesus is claiming a different kind of equality as is evidenced by John 10:33: "The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

See? According to John and the Jews, Jesus is making Himself God.

That is a different kind of equality than what you are talking about.

If Jesus makes Himself God. Well, that is something other sons of God do not do. Jews or Christians. We are not God.

So I think I'm still at:

Was Jesus lying? crazy? telling the truth? or was John confused?

The idea that we can be considered equal to God in some lesser senses is ok, but it doesn't explain wanting to kill somebody over it.

Peace.

 

[oatmeal]

The question of did Jesus say, "I am equal to God?" is off topic. It is not relevant to my original post for several reasons.

First of all, in John 5:18 John the Apostle tells us himself that Jesus was "making Himself equal with God."

That settles the question of whether or not Jesus did that. John said He did, so He did. (Unless John was confused about something.)

How Jesus did that....what He said or what He did...that is a different question and a whole different topic.

That Jesus did that seems incontrovertible. John tells us Jesus did that.

Second, everything that Jesus said and did was not recorded in the Scriptures. I believe the Scriptures even tell us that explicitly but I'd have to look that up.



The Jews considered themselves to be sons of God as well and God as their Father.

Hosea 1:10: "...You are sons of the living God."
Hosea 11:1: "When Israel was a child I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son."
Deuteronomy 32:6: "...Is He not your Father who bought you?"



Perhaps, but that is not the kind of equality that the Jewish people thought Jesus was claiming. The Jews and Christians could claim the kind of equality that you are talking about and nobody would want to kill them.

Jesus is claiming a different kind of equality as is evidenced by John 10:33: "The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

See? According to John and the Jews, Jesus is making Himself God.

That is a different kind of equality than what you are talking about.

If Jesus makes Himself God. Well, that is something other sons of God do not do. Jews or Christians. We are not God.

So I think I'm still at:

Was Jesus lying? crazy? telling the truth? or was John confused?

The idea that we can be considered equal to God in some lesser senses is ok, but it doesn't explain wanting to kill somebody over it.

Peace.

The Jews did not think that Jesus was claiming to be God, if they thought he was, they would have simply brushed him off as being insane.

However, that he claimed to be the son of God was unexpected.

Israel were sons of God by adoption, not by seed.

Jesus is literally a male offspring of God, thus the first person in the family of God.

the Judean mockers were not ready for that.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Did you ask?

You receive not because you ask not.

Although you did not ask, we learn that even Pilate recognized that the religious elite wanted Jesus dead because of envy.

Actually, I did ask, although not in as much detail as I could have. I asked for help in understanding the verse.

Matthew 27
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.

The religious elite had a great scam going, Jesus upset there apple cart. He was teaching truth which exposed their lies, he was caring about people lives which exposed their self centered motives, he was putting the power of God to use which exposed their weakness and unbelief, he was light which exposed their darkness.

Oh, by the way, John 5:18 does not say Jesus made himself equal to God, it says

John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Um. Yes it does. Dissect the verse a little bit. The Jews sought to kill him because he (was) "making Himself equal with God." Merely changing the tense of a verse in conversation does not change the meaning.

"making Himself equal with God" is what the text says. That is why they wanted to kill Him.

Jesus isn't claiming to be "a son" of God like all Jews and Christians do. He was claiming to be "the Son of God" as in the "only begotten Son of God." That is something different.

that Jesus said that God was his Father, which of course is true, God is his father and Jesus said so.

However, does saying that equal making himself equal to God? Like I said, culturally, the the son is equal to his father in many ways, but the father retains his superiority and authority over the son.

This idea does not do justice to the text because all of the Jews living in that culture would've understood that and nobody would've wanted to kill Him for it. If anything they could've all said: "Meh. Big deal. We are all sons of God. So what about it Jesus?"

But they didn't. They wanted to kill Him.

Jesus Christ is subordinate to, inferior to and derived from God, his Father.

But was equal to do his Father's will.

I do not read where Jesus said, "I am equal to God" Did I miss that somewhere?

Was everything Jesus said and did recorded in the Scriptures?

The self righteous religious elite falsely accused him plenty of times.

He knew the law, he did the law, not only did he do the law,he fulfilled the law.

He was that good at doing the law, he fulfilled it.

God is my Father and God is the Father of all Christians. does that mean we are claiming to be equal to God? Does our culture conclude that by saying we are sons of God that we are equal to God? I have never heard that. That is one of many differences between the Eastern culture of the Bible and Western culture

Exactly. I agree. Good point. And as you have emphasized over and over the culture of Jesus' time would agree with you.

Jesus obviously was claiming something other than what you are saying in order for Him to be killed for it.

And the Scriptures confirm that.

John 10:33 shows that the Jews knew He was guilty of "making Himself God".
John 19:7 shows the real reason they finally tell Pilate why they want Him dead. He made Himself the "Son of God". That cannot be in the same sense that they all thought of themselves as "a son of God" because He would only have been claiming the same things they could.

No death penalty for that.

Jesus is claiming something radically different.

Your requirement that Jesus must claim "I am equal to God" in those exact words AND they must be recorded in Scripture is just your own imposition you are placing on the texts.

John tells us Jesus made Himself equal to God. The Jews knew it, John knew it.

We don't need to know what He said or what He did to know that He did that.

My question about the verse stems from the idea of:

Ok. Jesus made Himself equal to God. Now what?

Hence, the different options I was thinking of.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The Jews did not think that Jesus was claiming to be God, if they thought he was, they would have simply brushed him off as being insane.

I think there is evidence in the Scriptures that disagrees with you.

The Jews did think that Jesus was claiming to be God. John 10:33 shows it:

"The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

And they didn't brush Him off as being insane. They wanted to stone Him to death.

And that leads to my questions: Was Jesus insane? Was He lying? or was He telling the Truth?

However, that he claimed to be the son of God was unexpected.

Israel were sons of God by adoption, not by seed.

Just like Christians.

Jesus is literally a male offspring of God, thus the first person in the family of God.

the Judean mockers were not ready for that.

What do you mean "literally a male offspring of God"?

I don't think I've heard of that before. Are you suggesting that the Blessed Virgin Mary had physical intercourse to conceive Jesus?

 

[oatmeal]

Actually, I did ask, although not in as much detail as I could have. I asked for help in understanding the verse.




Um. Yes it does. Dissect the verse a little bit. The Jews sought to kill him because he (was) "making Himself equal with God." Merely changing the tense of a verse in conversation does not change the meaning.

"making Himself equal with God" is what the text says. That is why they wanted to kill Him.

Jesus isn't claiming to be "a son" of God like all Jews and Christians do. He was claiming to be "the Son of God" as in the "only begotten Son of God." That is something different.



This idea does not do justice to the text because all of the Jews living in that culture would've understood that and nobody would've wanted to kill Him for it. If anything they could've all said: "Meh. Big deal. We are all sons of God. So what about it Jesus?"

But they didn't. They wanted to kill Him.



Was everything Jesus said and did recorded in the Scriptures?



Exactly. I agree. Good point. And as you have emphasized over and over the culture of Jesus' time would agree with you.

Jesus obviously was claiming something other than what you are saying in order for Him to be killed for it.

And the Scriptures confirm that.

John 10:33 shows that the Jews knew He was guilty of "making Himself God".
John 19:7 shows the real reason they finally tell Pilate why they want Him dead. He made Himself the "Son of God". That cannot be in the same sense that they all thought of themselves as "a son of God" because He would only have been claiming the same things they could.

No death penalty for that.

Jesus is claiming something radically different.

Your requirement that Jesus must claim "I am equal to God" in those exact words AND they must be recorded in Scripture is just your own imposition you are placing on the texts.

John tells us Jesus made Himself equal to God. The Jews knew it, John knew it.

We don't need to know what He said or what He did to know that He did that.

My question about the verse stems from the idea of:

Ok. Jesus made Himself equal to God. Now what?

Hence, the different options I was thinking of.

Peace.

John 5:18 is an interesting verse for study

Not all that Jesus said or did is recorded, for it all his works were recorded, I suppose the world itself could not contain all the books that it would take to record them all.

John 21 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

God had Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record what God deemed important for us to know.

The book of John and by extension, all the scripture was written so that we might, as John 20 states

" But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Scriptures were written to the end that we might believe that Jesus is the anointed one, the son of God, and that believing we might have life through his name.

Anyone can guess about what was not written, but those things may not meet the goals God set in John 20

Did Jesus make himself equal to God or did he simply state that he is the son of God?

The way I read John 5:18, it does not say that Jesus said, "I am the son of God" with the goal in mind of suggesting that he is equal to God.

The false accusers did what? They falsely accused Jesus of many things and looked for opportunities to falsely accuse him of more violations of their religious beliefs.

Have you ever said anything that was misunderstood or twisted to say something else? I have. My intent was one thing but those who opposed me came up with an exagerrated and twisted conclusion. Things I never intended nor said.

Did Jesus intend to communicate, "Na,na,na, boo, boo, I am equal to God"? or simply that he is the son of God?

Did Jesus, as the prophet foretold by Moses speak his own thoughts or what God told him to say?

Jesus spoke what the father told him to speak and did what the Father told him to do, whether from scripture, God's written word, or directly by revelation from God.

Jesus Christ obeyed God fully, completely and perfectly.

We do not want to read anything into scripture. Most people have trouble enough reading what it actually says, let alone understanding what is there at face value.

Jesus violated culture, but he never violated God's word, God's laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, premises....

Jesus did not let culture get in the way of his obedience to God. One example is his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well.

Was Jesus equal to God? Yes, within the parameters of being equal to the task and goal of doing God's will, yes, he was.

Of course, that does not make him God, but simply equal to the task of doing God's will for his life.

Those who hated him were not looking for the pure and simple truth that Jesus lived and taught, they were plotting his murder. They were not interested in the truth, they wanted him dead. Their motives and goals were evil

 

[jamie]

Humans are type of being. Angels are a different type of being. God is a different type of being.

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." (John 3:6)

We are born of the flesh in order to be born of the Spirit at Christ's appearing.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Equal in what way?

That is worth discussing.

"Equal" in such a way that the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him for it.

"The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” (John 10:33 NKJV)

 

[Squeaky]

I disagree.

In John 5:18 John is telling us what he thinks. It is kindof like:

Us:"Hey John, what's going on?"

John: "Well, the Jews want to kill Jesus because He is making Himself equal to God." (John 5:18)

John thinks Jesus is making Himself equal to God too.

Do you think John is lacking spiritual understanding at this point too?

I said
Context, context. Jesus came to change everyone's beliefs even the disciples. Jesus even told them He could do nothing of Himself. Saying He wasn't equal to God.

John 5:16-19
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
(NKJ)

Nobody had received the Holy Spirit yet. not even John.

John 7:39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(NKJ)

 

[jamie]

That is and worth discussing.

"Equal" in such a way that the Jewish leaders wanted to kill Him for it.

"The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” (John 10:33 NKJV)

Equal in being, but not equal in authority, just like the military.

God is a type of being.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

John 5:18 is an interesting verse for study

I agree! :thumb:

Not all that Jesus said or did is recorded, for it all his works were recorded, I suppose the world itself could not contain all the books that it would take to record them all.

John 21 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

I agree. So it would seem unreasonable to demand that we see in writing where Jesus says "I am equal to God".

God had Matthew, Mark, Luke and John record what God deemed important for us to know.

I agree. And part of that is John showing us that Jesus "made Himself equal to God" and that some of the Jews wanted to kill Him because of that.

The book of John and by extension, all the scripture was written so that we might, as John 20 states

" But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Scriptures were written to the end that we might believe that Jesus is the anointed one, the son of God, and that believing we might have life through his name.

Agreed! :thumb:

Anyone can guess about what was not written, but those things may not meet the goals God set in John 20

I agree. And John's writings show us that Jesus "made Himself equal to God" in a way that some of the Jews wanted to kill Him for it.

That is not speculation about what is not written.

Did Jesus make himself equal to God or did he simply state that he is the son of God?

The way I read John 5:18, it does not say that Jesus said, "I am the son of God" with the goal in mind of suggesting that he is equal to God.

I think it is important to remember, as you mentioned earlier, the historical and cultural context of these passages. John was a 1st century Jew writing for predominantly a 1st century Jewish audience. We have to ask ourselves: "What would this mean to a 1st century Jew? How would they understand what John is saying?"

John 10:33 gives us some insight into that: "The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

They understood Jesus' claims to being equal to God meant that He was claiming to be God.

The false accusers did what? They falsely accused Jesus of many things and looked for opportunities to falsely accuse him of more violations of their religious beliefs.

Agreed.

Have you ever said anything that was misunderstood or twisted to say something else? I have. My intent was one thing but those who opposed me came up with an exagerrated and twisted conclusion. Things I never intended nor said.

The difference is that nobody wanted to kill you for what you said and they misunderstood. And if they did try to kill you for it, I bet you would've clarified so that they did understand what you meant.

Jesus didn't do that. He let them kill Him. For misunderstanding what He meant? For thinking He meant one thing when He really meant something else? And He didn't try to clarify it? I don't think so.

Did Jesus intend to communicate, "Na,na,na, boo, boo, I am equal to God"? or simply that he is the son of God?

Well, without the "na,na,na, boo, boo" the biblical evidence indicates that the Jews and John himself knew that He was making Himself equal to God.

Did Jesus, as the prophet foretold by Moses speak his own thoughts or what God told him to say?

Jesus spoke what the father told him to speak and did what the Father told him to do, whether from scripture, God's written word, or directly by revelation from God.

Jesus Christ obeyed God fully, completely and perfectly.

This is the same Jesus who the book of Hebrews says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)

We do not want to read anything into scripture. Most people have trouble enough reading what it actually says, let alone understanding what is there at face value.

I agree. So when John writes that Jesus made "Himself equal to God" and the Jews wanted to kill Him for making Himself God, we should accept that He made Himself equal to God.

Jesus violated culture, but he never violated God's word, God's laws, commandments, ordinances, statutes, premises....

Jesus did not let culture get in the way of his obedience to God. One example is his conversation with the Samaritan woman at the well.

Agreed.

Was Jesus equal to God? Yes, within the parameters of being equal to the task and goal of doing God's will, yes, he was.

That would not have got Him killed. That idea does not fit the biblical evidence.

Of course, that does not make him God, but simply equal to the task of doing God's will for his life.

Those who hated him were not looking for the pure and simple truth that Jesus lived and taught, they were plotting his murder. They were not interested in the truth, they wanted him dead. Their motives and goals were evil

I agree. And the biblical evidence shows that they wanted Him dead for making Himself God.

So far I think:

Option 1 is unreasonable because John wasn't confused.
Option 2 is unreasonable because nobody would want to kill somebody who claimed to be equal to God
in the sense of doing God's will.
Option 3 is unreasonable because Jesus wasn't a liar.
Option 4 is unreasonable because Jesus wasn't crazy.

Only Option 5 seems reasonable with the biblical data. Jesus was telling the Truth when He claimed to be equal to God.

And for that, they killed Him.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Jesus is literally a male offspring of God, thus the first person in the family of God.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "literally a male offspring of God"?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

I said
Context, context. Jesus came to change everyone's beliefs even the disciples.

What verse tells us that Jesus came to change everyone's beliefs?

Jesus even told them He could do nothing of Himself.

Agreed....

Saying He wasn't equal to God.

I disagree. The verse doesn't say that. That is just your interpretation. Is there a verse in the Bible that says that Jesus wasn't equal to God?

Because John explicitly wrote that Jesus was "making Himself equal to God." See verse 18 that you quoted below.

Now, that doesn't mean He was equal to God.

So what was He:

Crazy or Lying?

John 5:16-19
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
(NKJ)

Nobody had received the Holy Spirit yet. not even John.

I disagree. Do you know when John wrote the words of his Gospel? Do you know when He wrote that Jesus was "making Himself equal to God?"

Well after the descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

John tells us that Jesus made "Himself equal to God" and that the Jews wanted to kill Him for making Himself God...and he wrote those words AFTER he had received the Holy Spirit.

John 7:39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(NKJ)

What did Jesus speak concerning the Spirit? What is John 7 referencing?

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Equal in being, but not equal in authority, just like the military.

God is a type of being.

Well, if God is a type of being and Jesus is claiming to be equal in being...then Jesus is claiming to be God.

That idea of yours squares well with the Scriptures when the Jews thought the same thing and wanted Him dead.

 

[jamie]

Well, if God is a type of being and Jesus is claiming to be equal in being...then Jesus is claiming to be God.

Very good. Human sons are like their father.

Spirit sons are like their Father.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Very good. Human sons are like their father.

Spirit sons are like their Father.

Cool. Thanks.:thumb: