Hello one and all!

[sky.]

I would point you to Romans Chapter 11. Specificity notwithstanding, there's a lot to be learned from reading the whole chapter. Enjoy!

Nice. So you don't have a specific Scripture that magically changes your nationality?

 

[Dena]

I don't really understand the concept of being "grafted".

 

[IMJerusha]

Don't expect everyone will look at it. I looked because as soon as someone calls themself a "messianic jew" I'm curious to know if they are actually Jewish.

I can't remember, do you attend a messianic church?

Dena, I suspect you looked at my profile because I posted directly beneath you in a political thread here and you became curious as to whether I was the same Jerusha you had knowledge of from another forum. You already know that I am part of a small Messianic group.

 

[IMJerusha]

Nice. So you don't have a specific Scripture that magically changes your nationality?

Well, I guess what happens to one when they come to believe in Yeshua of the tribe of Judah is somewhat magical in a Spiritual way but I never really considered it changing my nationality but rather being changed to accommodate the Body. Read Romans 11. It's all there, I promise.

 

[IMJerusha]

I don't really understand the concept of being "grafted".

Oh, I don't believe that. You're a very smart woman living in ag country.

 

[Dena]

Dena, I suspect you looked at my profile because I posted directly beneath you in a political thread here and you became curious as to whether I was the same Jerusha you had knowledge of from another forum. You already know that I am part of a small Messianic group.

No, I looked at your profile when I saw your introduction. It never ocurred to me you were from the other forums. I know you are Messianic but I do not remember if you go to a Messianic church. Not everyone who is Messianic attends a Messianic church and I can't keep everyone's details in my mind.

 

[Dena]

Oh, I don't believe that. You're a very smart woman living in ag country.

Because I am smart I am supossed to know what you mean by being "grafted" into Israel? I'm sorry. I don't.

Well, I guess what happens to one when they come to believe in Yeshua of the tribe of Judah is somewhat magical in a Spiritual way but I never really considered it changing my nationality but rather being changed to accommodate the Body. Read Romans 11. It's all there, I promise.

Ah, well see being a Jew is about tribe or nationality, so to speak. It's isn't "spiritual" any more than becoming a Candian citizen is just "spritual". I may like Canadians. I may appreciate Canadian culture. I may marry a Canadian. But, that doesn't make me a Canadian citizen. It doesn't graft me into the Canadian tree.

 

[IMJerusha]

No, I looked at your profile when I saw your introduction. It never ocurred to me you were from the other forums. I know you are Messianic but I do not remember if you go to a Messianic church. Not everyone who is Messianic attends a Messianic church and I can't keep everyone's details in my mind.

If I wanted to get nit-picky, I would say that no Messianic attends a church but rather a congregation or synagogue, but what difference does it make?

 

[Dena]

If I wanted to get nit-picky, I would say that no Messianic attends a church but rather a congregation or synagogue, but what difference does it make?

Synagogues are for people who don't worship Jesus. Anyway, I was just curious. If you have some reason you don't want to respond - fine, don't. It's not a big deal.

 

[IMJerusha]

Because I am smart I am supossed to know what you mean by being "grafted" into Israel? I'm sorry. I don't.

Then I defer to my trusty Funk and Wagnalls for the definition of the word "graft": A shoot (or in this case, Gentiles) inserted into a prepared slit in a tree or plant (or in this case, Israel, specifically the tribe of Judah) so as to become a living part of it.

Ah, well see being a Jew is about tribe or nationality, so to speak. It's isn't "spiritual" any more than becoming a Candian citizen is just "spritual". I may like Canadians. I may appreciate Canadian culture. I may marry a Canadian. But, that doesn't make me a Canadian citizen. It doesn't graft me into the Canadian tree.

Well, now you're mixing apples with oranges. God's ways aren't man's ways. I didn't post spiritual Dena. I posted Spiritual as in Ruach HaKodesh. Big difference. I know being a Jew is about tribe. Nationality is something else, at least in the eyes of the Israeli Ministry of the Interior who decides if one meets halakhic definition.

 

[IMJerusha]

Synagogues are for people who don't worship Jesus. Anyway, I was just curious. If you have some reason you don't want to respond - fine, don't. It's not a big deal.

Considering Yeshua and His disciples spent a lot of time in synagogues, I would say synagogues are most certainly for those who worship God and His Son, the Messiah. It's all in one's perspective.

I have answered your question. Shalom, Dena.

 

[Dena]

Then I defer to my trusty Funk and Wagnalls for the definition of the word "graft": A shoot (or in this case, Gentiles) inserted into a prepared slit in a tree or plant (or in this case, Israel, specifically the tribe of Judah) so as to become a living part of it.

I do agree with sky on one of her points. The Messianic Movement was started by Jews who wanted to share Jesus with other Jews but then for some reason more non-Jews were drawn to the movement. Some of them so desperately want to be Jews but do not want to give up their man god, original sin and and the like. They do not want to put in the hard work it takes to become a part of the Jewish people. So somebody came up with this half baked idea that "oh, we're really grated in the tree because we worship jesus".

It is not a Jewish concept. I just read Romans 11. I don't blantely see there that non-Jews are "grafted" into the tribe but I do see a lot of what Paul is saying as being contrary to Judaism. Which isn't surprising given that it appears the Paul character was trying to start his own religion and it wasn't Judaism.

You can believe what you want to believe but at the end of the day you aren't considered a part of the Jews, you do exactly that which we do not do and at some point you may come to feel emotional distress over it. I've heard of many instances where that became the case. They learn to just be happy with her they are and realize it's okay to be who they are without constantly insisting they are something different. I imagine it's very freeing! Anyway, my point here started out that if you use the "Messianic Jew" label people are going to think you are Jewish. You will misrepresent the Jewish people and we find it obnoxious. It's great you put that you are a non-Jew in your profile but not everyone will look at it and those who do will be confused. Don't be surprised if people continue to question you about it.

Considering Yeshua and His disciples spent a lot of time in synagogues, I would say synagogues are most certainly for those who worship God and His Son, the Messiah. It's all in one's perspective.

Yeah. This is a really bad example given that the Christian Bible describes Jesus as actually being Jewish and having absolutely nothing to do with the Christianity that hadn't yet appeared. I'm not quite sure but didn't his disciples actually worship him? In reality, I am doubting it. There were a lot of men consider Messiah in the past and they weren't worshipped. I would assume Jesus were no different during the days he were living.

I have answered your question. Shalom, Dena.

No, not really but that's okay.

 

[Stripe]

Automotive and related industries, electronics of all sorts, DHL was located here, Fruit of the Loom was here and agriculture which is still here and seems to be doing well.

And what is your business... If it's any of my business.

The kingdom of Israel, consisting of the ten northern tribes, was taken into captivity by the Assyrians. The kingdom of Judah, consisting of the tribes of Benjamin and Judah, was taken into captivity by the Babylonians some years later. Two House theology posits that the ten tribes became a multitude of nations since their Assyrian captivity and are wondering around the world, for the most part, still not yet rejoined to the kingdom of Judah. That's kind of a brief description. A lot of Gentiles think they may be of the lost ten tribes. I'm not one of them.

Cool.

Thanks for the info. :thumb:

 

[sky.]

I think the "messianic jew" label is problematic. If you lean messianic the straight christian label doesn't fit. However, if you use the "messianic jew" label then everyone thinks you are a Jew and that's dishonest (if you aren't actually Jewish).

I think it is dishonest or confused about something to claim to be Jewish when one is not.

Here is a link to what I think is a Christian understanding of what it means to be a Messianic Christian or a Messianic Jew and how they come together. I don't use the title "Messianic Christian". I am a believer in the Messiahship of Jesus and Christian is good enough for me on that.

Association of Messianic Congregations

Towards the bottom of the page it tells a bit about the Two House/Ephraimite doctrine.

Summing it up in the article is this;

Gentile Believers in Messiah Yeshua are beloved of God and do not need to invent, imagine or make up a false Jewish/Hebrew/Israel lineage to be top-ranked "players" in the family of God. God loves Gentiles who love the Messiah. Selah.

 

[sky.]

I don't really understand the concept of being "grafted".

From the same link here is a bit about being "grafted".

Question: Now that I believe in Yeshua, haven't I ceased being a Gentile and am now a "Spiritual Jew" (Romans 2:28-29)? Haven't I been grafted into the Olive Tree (Romans 11)? Am I not part of the Commonwealth of Israel (Ephesians 2:12)? Am I not a son of Abraham (Galatians 3:29)?

Answer: We have to be very clear about our use of names and titles. The Holy Spirit is very careful in the Scriptures that comprise the New Testament, not to identify Gentiles as Jews. Gentiles are never told that they "become Jews" or "convert to Judaism." Messiah's Holy Community of Jews and Gentiles (the Church) is never said to "replace Israel," "take the place of Israel," or be the "New Israel." What then is the relationship of Messianic Gentiles to the nation of Israel? "Kosher-hearted" Gentiles are sons of Abraham. Abraham is their spiritual father, but that doesn't make them Jews. They are Abraham's offspring, but that doesn't mean that Christians are "Jews" or "Spiritual Israel" or the "New Israel." Abraham is the father of many nations, but not all those nations are entitled to be called "Israel." Only those who are descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob can properly be called "Jews" or "Israel." Gentiles who have found the Messiah are not "Spiritual Jews." They are "Spiritual Gentiles." If you look at the context of Romans 2:28-29, you will see that Rabbi Paul is specifically addressing Jewish people (v.17). He is teaching us that Jewish people who have saving faith in Messiah are "Jews inwardly" and spiritually circumcised. You might be a wild olive branch that has been grafted in to Israel's Olive Tree of Salvation and Blessing, but you are a "partaker with us" - the natural branches. You don't replace us. Yes, Gentile Believers are now part of the Commonwealth of Israel, and have a new citizenship with the Jewish saints, but that doesn't make you a Jew, any more than Paul having Roman citizenship made him a physical descendant of Rome.

Properly identifying Messianic Jews and Gentiles as equal yet distinct is important because of the ongoing differences in their earthly roles and calling. "Replacement Theology" - the teaching that the Church is the New Israel and has replaced the Jewish people, is the result of a flawed interpretation of Scripture. It is wrong and has contributed to considerable violence against the Jewish people (Loren Jacobs).

 

[IMJerusha]

I do agree with sky on one of her points. The Messianic Movement was started by Jews who wanted to share Jesus with other Jews but then for some reason more non-Jews were drawn to the movement. Some of them so desperately want to be Jews but do not want to give up their man god, original sin and and the like. They do not want to put in the hard work it takes to become a part of the Jewish people. So somebody came up with this half baked idea that "oh, we're really grated in the tree because we worship jesus".

Man god? I don't know what that means but you don't need to explain it. It's easy to say why I was attracted to Messianic Judaism. I started paying attention to Scripture; really paying attention to it and I was touched in my soul. I think the feeling is best described as hungry to be more like Yeshua and that "half baked idea", as you call it, came from Yeshua who delivered it to Paul. That was long before the Messianic Jewish movement came to be.

It is not a Jewish concept.

No, it's God's concept and a lot of God's concepts aren't considered Jewish.

I just read Romans 11. I don't blantely see there that non-Jews are "grafted" into the tribe but I do see a lot of what Paul is saying as being contrary to Judaism. Which isn't surprising given that it appears the Paul character was trying to start his own religion and it wasn't Judaism.

Is that what you think? Well, okay.

You can believe what you want to believe but at the end of the day you aren't considered a part of the Jews, you do exactly that which we do not do and at some point you may come to feel emotional distress over it. I've heard of many instances where that became the case. They learn to just be happy with her they are and realize it's okay to be who they are without constantly insisting they are something different. I imagine it's very freeing!

You've lost me with this stuff except for one thing....I don't need Jews to accept me. God accepts me as one of His by virtue of His Son and men do not get to tell Hashem who He accepts and who He doesn't. If that is what you think then you could do with a little freeing yourself...and another think.

Anyway, my point here started out that if you use the "Messianic Jew" label people are going to think you are Jewish. You will misrepresent the Jewish people and we find it obnoxious. It's great you put that you are a non-Jew in your profile but not everyone will look at it and those who do will be confused. Don't be surprised if people continue to question you about it.

I have Jewish friends. They don't find me obnoxious, or at least not that they've said. I have no problem with people here questioning me about my faith. I think the Prushim have done more to misrepresent the Jewish people and God, the author of the faith, than anything I could possibly do.

Yeah. This is a really bad example given that the Christian Bible describes Jesus as actually being Jewish and having absolutely nothing to do with the Christianity that hadn't yet appeared. I'm not quite sure but didn't his disciples actually worship him? In reality, I am doubting it. There were a lot of men consider Messiah in the past and they weren't worshipped. I would assume Jesus were no different during the days he were living.

Yes, Yeshua is a Jew by virtue of the fact that He is of the tribe/house of Judah. When we are obedient and faithful to Yeshua, we are worshiping Him. If you are implying that Yeshua, being a Jew, would not have desired that obedience and faithfulness back then as He does now, you are as mistaken about that as you are about the fact that He is still living. Only one Messiah fulfilled prophecy. Only one Messiah is the Son of God. Only one Messiah left the grave...Yeshua HaMashiach or in the Greek, Jesus Christ.

No, not really but that's okay.

Okiedokie!

 

[IMJerusha]

And what is your business... If it's any of my business.

I'm a wife and a mom and I work my farm. For periodic income I do some odd jobs on the side; accounting, sales, collections and investigations.

 

[Sherman]

Hey, what happened to your tree fortress? I rather liked it.

She'll be back in time. She's my default avatar.

Thank you! I know you from Des' place, I do believe.
For the flavor or for what it represents, or both?

Mostly the flavor.

 

[Dena]

Man god?

Half divine and half human.

I think the feeling is best described as hungry to be more like Yeshua and that "half baked idea", as you call it, came from Yeshua who delivered it to Paul. That was long before the Messianic Jewish movement came to be.

I think you are incorrect that the idea came from Jesus but sky would be much beter prepared to discuss that with you.

No, it's God's concept and a lot of God's concepts aren't considered Jewish.

It's God's idea? Well, how convenient! If your ideas are not Jewish then you shouldn't be calling yourself Messianic "Judaism". That seems logical to me.

Is that what you think? Well, okay.

Yes, that is what I think. Christianity was created after Jesus had died and the character Paul in your Bible is clearly coming up with his own religion.

You've lost me with this stuff except for one thing....I don't need Jews to accept me.

The Messianic Non-Jews spend way too much time trying to pick up Jewish culture and referencing Jewish ideas for me to believe they do not really, at the heart of the matter, want to be accepted. Perhaps you are different but many do want to be accepted. They want to be accepted so badly they lie and make up stories in order to gain acceptance. They deceive Rabbis, congregation and entire communities. All because they feel like they are more important, special or more loved if they do. It's very sad. There isn't anything at all wrong with not being Jewish.

God accepts me as one of His by virtue of His Son and men do not get to tell Hashem who He accepts and who He doesn't. If that is what you think then you could do with a little freeing yourself

I never said God didn't except you. I actually said quite the opposite. I just said you aren't a Jew and you aren't "grated" into any Jewish tree.

I have Jewish friends. They don't find me obnoxious, or at least not that they've said.

So you're telling me you have non-Christian Jewish friends who aren't at all bothered by your insistance that your religion is Messianic Judaism[/I or that you references yourself as Messianic Jew? Are they involved in the Jewish community? Religiously? How can you be certain it doesn't bother them but they keep their mouth shut so as not to hurt your feelings?

And to be clear I did not say you are obnoxious. I said it's obnoxious for non-Jews to use the lable Judaism for their religion. It's not a personal attack on you individually. You didn't name the movement or the labels attached to it.

If you are implying that Yeshua, being a Jew, would not have desired that obedience and faithfulness back then as He does now, you are as mistaken about that as you are about the fact that He is still living.

Would a Jewish man be upset to find that people are worshipping him as god and trying to get other Jews to do the same? Absolutely!!! I can't even imagine how mortified I would be to come back to life and see millions of people worshipping me and insisting I was a god.

Only one Messiah fulfilled prophecy.

I don't debate this issue. Plenty of other people out there working on it. I'll leave it to the professionals.

 

[IMJerusha]

Half divine and half human.

Ah, okay.

I think you are incorrect that the idea came from Jesus but sky would be much beter prepared to discuss that with you.

Okay.

It's God's idea? Well, how convenient! If your ideas are not Jewish then you shouldn't be calling yourself Messianic "Judaism". That seems logical to me.

As I said, it wasn't my idea. I'm sorry you have a problem with me being in Messianic Judaism.

Yes, that is what I think. Christianity was created after Jesus had died and the character Paul in your Bible is clearly coming up with his own religion.

It is your right to believe what you choose to believe.

The Messianic Non-Jews spend way too much time trying to pick up Jewish culture and referencing Jewish ideas for me to believe they do not really, at the heart of the matter, want to be accepted. Perhaps you are different but many do want to be accepted. They want to be accepted so badly they lie and make up stories in order to gain acceptance. They deceive Rabbis, congregation and entire communities. All because they feel like they are more important, special or more loved if they do. It's very sad. There isn't anything at all wrong with not being Jewish.

What you're describing is sin. Sin affects all peoples whether Christian or Jewish or whatever. I understand what you are saying and no, there is nothing wrong with not being Jewish in terms of ethnicity. There is something wrong with not being one of God's people. That would mean that one has not accepted Yeshua as Messiah; that one is not grafted into God's tree of life and that is very sad, indeed.

I never said God didn't except you. I actually said quite the opposite. I just said you aren't a Jew and you aren't "grated" into any Jewish tree.

Well, I beg to differ. No, I'm not ethnically Jewish but I am most definitely one of God's own by virtue of my belief in Yeshua HaMashiach.

So you're telling me you have non-Christian Jewish friends who aren't at all bothered by your insistance that your religion is Messianic Judaism[/I or that you references yourself as Messianic Jew? Are they involved in the Jewish community? Religiously? How can you be certain it doesn't bother them but they keep their mouth shut so as not to hurt your feelings?

Yes, that is what I am telling you. They accept my faith and I accept theirs. How can I be certain it doesn't bother them and they simply keep mum about it? Because we are honest with one another and they involve me in their lives and their faith.

And to be clear I did not say you are obnoxious. I said it's obnoxious for non-Jews to use the lable Judaism for their religion. It's not a personal attack on you individually. You didn't name the movement or the labels attached to it.

Well, thanks.

Would a Jewish man be upset to find that people are worshipping him as god and trying to get other Jews to do the same? Absolutely!!! I can't even imagine how mortified I would be to come back to life and see millions of people worshipping me and insisting I was a god.

Well, let me show you what Yeshua HaMashiach, a Jewish man/God, actually did say about it.

" 'But what about you?' he asked. 'Who do you say I am?' Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus replied, 'Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.' " Now that was before Yeshua was crucified. Scripture records this after Yeshua's resurrection: "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.' "

No mortification. No upset. I realize you don't believe any of this, Dena and that's your choice, your right, but I do believe this, and in spite of our different views, we can still be friends and show care for one another.

I don't debate this issue. Plenty of other people out there working on it. I'll leave it to the professionals.

Okay.