Have you ever noticed...

[glorydaz]

The epistle is abundantly clear that he is writing to those whose faith is in Christ.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
John 1:3

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John 1:6,7

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
John 2:1

Do you not have an advocate with the Father as a believer in Christ?

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
I John 2:4-6

You speak of faith in Christ, but what is that faith?
John and the other disciples preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Which was belief that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Their Messiah.

That's why I call them Messianic Jews, so people don't keep getting them mixed up with the Christians who were saved by grace.
Notice they still walk according to the law -- keeping commandments.
When people try to mix these two groups, it's like mixing water and oil. It just doesn't work.

 

[nikolai_42]

You speak of faith in Christ, but what is that faith?
John and the other disciples preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Which was belief that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. Their Messiah.

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:10-26

The faith is the same - whether of Israel or not. There is no multiple kingdom mandate - Christ spoke of "the kingdom" and "my kingdom" and there is no justification for them being different. "The Kingdom" is specific. It isn't modified. It is THE Kingdom. The one and only. Likewise, those that are in the Kingdom are there by faith.

And where Paul treats his people after the flesh (i.e. Israelites) in Romans 10, he says this :

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-13

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matthew 24:14

There is only one gospel. It is the gospel of THE Kingdom.

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mark 8:34-36

The gospel is a matter of one's own soul. The Israelite is not saved by one gospel and the Gentile by another. There is no difference. Paul's gospel is THE gospel by which God will judge the world (Romans 2:16 - God judges the hearts of men by Paul's gospel - not just the Jew's...then, in Romans 3:6, he asks how God will judge the world...the gospel is that which sees all the world condemned by the Law, yet saved in Christ).

That's why I call them Messianic Jews, so people don't keep getting them mixed up with the Christians who were saved by grace.

If that's just the Christians, then why does Paul charge Timothy to be strong in that grace (that is in Christ Jesus) and speak of the salvation that is in Christ Jesus (remember....no difference) shortly before he gives a condensed one sentence summary of the gospel (Christ raised from the dead) and then to divide the word of truth rightly? There is only one gospel implied here.

Notice they still walk according to the law -- keeping commandments.
When people try to mix these two groups, it's like mixing water and oil. It just doesn't work.

When Paul addresses those who know the Law in Romans, he then makes his way to bringing the Law to an end - and that's where he makes his "no difference" statements. The Gentiles never had the Law - so they didn't have to be given commandments. But they still had to be saved the same way any Israelite was saved. The righteousness of God is ONLY without the Law for EVERYONE who believes. The benefit of the Israelite is that they were given the Law (by which God will judge the world). No one will be justified by the Law. No one. So Israel had an advance look at what and who God was (and IS). And it wasn't completely hidden - because Abraham and David testified to it (faith) and Habakkuk uttered it (the just shall live by faith). The gospel and the Kindom is only one - for all.

 

[glorydaz]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:10-26

The faith is the same - whether of Israel or not. There is no multiple kingdom mandate - Christ spoke of "the kingdom" and "my kingdom" and there is no justification for them being different. "The Kingdom" is specific. It isn't modified. It is THE Kingdom. The one and only. Likewise, those that are in the Kingdom are there by faith.

And where Paul treats his people after the flesh (i.e. Israelites) in Romans 10, he says this :

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9-13

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matthew 24:14

There is only one gospel. It is the gospel of THE Kingdom.

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Mark 8:34-36

The gospel is a matter of one's own soul. The Israelite is not saved by one gospel and the Gentile by another. There is no difference. Paul's gospel is THE gospel by which God will judge the world (Romans 2:16 - God judges the hearts of men by Paul's gospel - not just the Jew's...then, in Romans 3:6, he asks how God will judge the world...the gospel is that which sees all the world condemned by the Law, yet saved in Christ).


If that's just the Christians, then why does Paul charge Timothy to be strong in that grace (that is in Christ Jesus) and speak of the salvation that is in Christ Jesus (remember....no difference) shortly before he gives a condensed one sentence summary of the gospel (Christ raised from the dead) and then to divide the word of truth rightly? There is only one gospel implied here.



When Paul addresses those who know the Law in Romans, he then makes his way to bringing the Law to an end - and that's where he makes his "no difference" statements. The Gentiles never had the Law - so they didn't have to be given commandments. But they still had to be saved the same way any Israelite was saved. The righteousness of God is ONLY without the Law for EVERYONE who believes. The benefit of the Israelite is that they were given the Law (by which God will judge the world). No one will be justified by the Law. No one. So Israel had an advance look at what and who God was (and IS). And it wasn't completely hidden - because Abraham and David testified to it (faith) and Habakkuk uttered it (the just shall live by faith). The gospel and the Kindom is only one - for all.

So you don't see Jesus and the apostles were preaching a KIngdom on earth where Christ, their Messiah, would sit upon the throne of David?

And you don't see a Heavenly Kingdom where the members of the body of Christ are seated with Him in heavenly places?

The Jews were promised a Kingdom on earth, and they'll be seeing it before too much longer. In that day, the sins of the Jews will be blotted out while ours are forgiven the moment we believe.

 

[nikolai_42]

So you don't see Jesus and the apostles were preaching a KIngdom on earth where Christ, their Messiah, would sit upon the throne of David?

And you don't see a Heavenly Kingdom where the members of the body of Christ are seated with Him in heavenly places?

The Jews were promised a Kingdom on earth, and they'll be seeing it before too much longer. In that day, the sins of the Jews will be blotted out while ours are forgiven the moment we believe.

How many thrones does Christ sit upon?

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:21

For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Jeremiah 33:17-18

And just a note that if the throne has disappeared (referring to the passage in Jeremiah), then it implies that there is no one sitting on the throne. The promise is continual (as the follow-up verses imply by comparing the promise of God's covenant with the day and night - which are perpetual without interruption).

 

[glorydaz]

How many thrones does Christ sit upon?

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:21

For thus saith the Lord; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;
Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.
Jeremiah 33:17-18

And just a note that if the throne has disappeared (referring to the passage in Jeremiah), then it implies that there is no one sitting on the throne. The promise is continual (as the follow-up verses imply by comparing the promise of God's covenant with the day and night - which are perpetual without interruption).

Sitting on thrones speaks of Power and Administration rather than actual sitting.

 

[nikolai_42]

Sitting on thrones speaks of Power and Administration rather than actual sitting.

Okay....so isn't He Lord of Israel?

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6-8

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:21-31

If this is to Israelites, Paul is clearly telling them the inheritance is spiritual. But if to Gentiles, why link them to Isaac?

 

[glorydaz]

Okay....so isn't He Lord of Israel?

You never make it easy for me, do you nikolai?

Jesus Christ is Lord of All.

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6-8

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Galatians 4:21-31

If this is to Israelites, Paul is clearly telling them the inheritance is spiritual. But if to Gentiles, why link them to Isaac?

Paul is speaking to Jews in Romans 9 about Israel's two sons.
Those from Hagar are not the Jews of promise.

And Paul is speaking to believers (neither Jew nor Gentile) in Galatians using the law and grace in allegory form.
I see nothing here about Israelites as having a spiritual inheritance.

I may be totally off base and hope one of the brothers will set me straight or elaborate.

 

[Right Divider]

Okay....so isn't He Lord of Israel?

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9:6-8

The "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" is EXCLUDING unbelieving Israel from Israel. It's not including gentiles. Only the remnant of Israel will inherit their kingdom.

If this is to Israelites, Paul is clearly telling them the inheritance is spiritual. But if to Gentiles, why link them to Isaac?

I don't understand your question.

Paul uses certain principles to teach other principles. They are not always the same.

The gospel of the kingdom was the kingdom AT HAND. It was the soon establishment of the restored kingdom of Israel on the earth with Christ sitting on the throne of His father David.

Luke 1:31-33 (AKJV/PCE)
(1:31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (1:32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: (1:33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The "house of Jacob" is Israel. Their kingdom was on the earth. David's throne is on the earth.