Have I gone MAD???

[Right Divider]

In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ. That can only mean that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ and many of the Hebrew epistles were written by Peter and by John.

Then most of today's MADs are ignorant of what Paul said here:

"Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me" (Ro.16:7).​

The phrase " in Christ" refers to being in the Body of Christ:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

Once again you just IGNORE the evidence that contradict your ideas.

"In Christ" and "in the BODY of Christ" are not synonymous. Your "evidence" looks convincing to those that do not know any better.

You're a "MAD" that does not rightly divide anything.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"In Christ" and "in the BODY of Christ" are not synonymous. Your "evidence" looks convincing to those that do not know any better.

So the following verse does not indicate that being in the Body is synonymous with being "in Christ"?

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

You're a "MAD" that does not rightly divide anything.

You are a MAD who runs and hides from the following Scriptures which contradict your teaching:

In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord." That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ. That can only mean that the Twelve were in the Body of Christ and many of the Hebrew epistles were written by Peter and by John.

According to you neither Peter nor Paul "called upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

[Right Divider]

So the following verse does not indicate that being in the Body is synonymous with being "in Christ"?

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

It was NOT "retroactive" Jerry.

There is a CONTEXT there that you are ignoring. The WE in those verses refer to "members of the body" and NOT every believer indiscriminately [Romans 12:4]

Rom 12:4-5 KJV For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: (5) So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

There is more than one way to be "in Christ".

 

[Lon]

Salvation has meaning meanings in the Bible, we have to be careful.

While David needed saving from Saul and Philistines, salvation from our sin condition is paramount.

Speaking of salvation, do you agree that down through history all people who have been saved were saved by faith alone apart from works?

There are many in the Mid Acts camp who insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works, despite the following words of the Savior spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

What do you think?

Not all Israel was Israel. I do believe 'works' are an outward sign of an inward change (intrinsic) but Jews had to measure up because of community (extrinsic).

The change: Those in Christ have the Holy Spirit indwelling them and are new creations 'the old has passed away, the new has come.' In the O.T. though 'extrinsic' in motivation, the Law held a tenor of what it meant to be 'holy' but the Jews never saw it. John 8:56 Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.”

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

So faith was always the means of eternal life.

Hebrew 11:9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
Hebrews 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It was NOT "retroactive" Jerry.

There is a CONTEXT there that you are ignoring. The WE in those verses refer to "members of the body" and NOT every believer indiscriminately [Romans 12:4]

The WE refers to those to whom Paul addressed his epistle:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

The WE refers to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

You must not think that either John and Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus because you don't think that the word "we" in the following verse applies to either John or Peter:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

There is more than one way to be "in Christ".

Please tell me all the ways that you think that a person can be "in Christ."

 

[Right Divider]

The WE refers to those to whom Paul addressed his epistle:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

The WE refers to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord."

Your Bible "verse hopping" attempt to change the meaning of Romans 12 doesn't fool me.

Please tell me all the ways that you think that a person can be "in Christ."

You're a bible scholar and you don't know these things?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So faith was always the means of eternal life.

Lon, what can you tell those in the MAD community who teach that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works of one kind or another? I have tried to convince them that they are wrong about that but for some reason they refuse to believe the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

My efforts to convince these MAD folks that they are wrong have failed so perhaps you can try another approach.

Thanks!

 

[Lon]

"In Christ" and "in the BODY of Christ" are not synonymous. Your "evidence" looks convincing to those that do not know any better.

You're a "MAD" that does not rightly divide anything.

Were there any churches with gentiles and Jews in the same congregation? Were only part of those 'in the body of Christ?'

Along this line: Were any of Paul's writings read by Hebrews 'as their own mail?' There are scriptures indicative here, so for me, I want to be sure my 'separation' isn't artificial. It'd seem between you and Jerry there is plenty room 'within' for discussion and some disagreements.

It was NOT "retroactive" Jerry.

There is a CONTEXT there that you are ignoring. The WE in those verses refer to "members of the body" and NOT every believer indiscriminately [Romans 12:4]

There is more than one way to be "in Christ".

While dispensationalism isn't 'time' persay, it helps, I think in these discussions to remember 'when' because today, certainly all who are in Christ are in the Body?

Perhaps true Messianic Jews have a bit of a different need in their lives such that it'd be hard for them and gentiles to belong to the same church. :idunno:

I want to say thanks again, while it may be a bit of friction, even so, the discussion is what I was looking for so that I could field a few questions and learn as I go.

Appreciate the input Jerry and Right D

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your Bible "verse hopping" attempt to change the meaning of Romans 12 doesn't fool me.

Why do you not even attempt to address the two passages which I quoted from the same epistle, 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 12:13?

At 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul speaks of both Jews and Gentiles being in the Body of Christ. But you think that only "some" of the Jewish believers at that time were in the Body but not "all." In your opinion what determined which Jewish believers were in the Body and which ones were not?

You're a bible scholar and you don't know these things?

You are the one who asserted that there is more than one way that a person can be " in Christ," not me. So tell me the different ways.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Were any of Paul's writings read by Hebrews 'as their own mail?'

Lon, according to what Paul said in the following verse can we not know that 1 Corinthians was addressed to the church at Corinth as well as all the Jewish believers no matter where they lived?:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

I don't see how this it is possible that this epistle was not addressed to all the Jewish believers living at the time it was written. And here is what Paul told all those Jewish believers:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Lon, do you think it is possible that the word "we" in that verse can be referring to "all" of the Gentile believers but only "some" of the Jewish believers but not "all" of them?

 

[Right Divider]

While David needed saving from Saul and Philistines, salvation from our sin condition is paramount.

Who says otherwise?

Many people think that this refers to "salvation from our sin condition":

Mat 24:13 KJV But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

It does NOT.

Not all Israel was Israel.

That does make all believers "spiritual Israel" or some such silliness.

I do believe 'works' are an outward sign of an inward change (intrinsic) but Jews had to measure up because of community (extrinsic).

Not sure where you're going with this.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.

So faith was always the means of eternal life.

Hebrew 11:9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
Hebrews 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.

Faith in what?

Don't just look at similarities, also look at differences.

Act 10:34-35 KJV Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (35) But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Tit 3:4-7 KJV But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

You simply cannot find "being justified by His grace" in the "gospels" during Christ's earthly ministry (or in Acts prior to the calling of Paul).

 

[Right Divider]

Why do you not even attempt to address the two passages which I quoted from the same epistle, 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 12:13?

Because we were talking about Romans 12:4-5. I will not try to follow your rabbit trails.

You're a classic cherry-picker. Just keep throwing out more pet verses until they succumb to your many verses.

You are the one who asserted that there is more than one way that a person can be " in Christ," not me. So tell me the different ways.

So you believe that the body of Christ began long before the calling of Paul?

John 15, particularly verses 4-7.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because we were talking about Romans 12:4-5. I will not try to follow your rabbit trail.

You're a classic cherry-picker. Just keep throwing out more pet verses until they succumb to your many verses.

"For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:4-5).​

Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 12:13 that they are both Jewish believers and Gentile believers in the Body.

You say that only "some" of the Jewish believers were in the Body in the first century. What evidence can you give that not all of the Jewish epistles were in the Body when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians? In the following passage Paul doesn't even hint that only "some" and not "all" of the Jewish believers were made members of the Body:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

What evidence can you give that not all of the Jewish believers were in the Body when Paul wrote that passage?

So you believe that the body of Christ began long before the calling of Paul?

John 15, particularly verses 4-7.

What about those verses make you think that others were not in the Body of Christ before Paul?

 

[Right Divider]

What about those verses make you think that others were not in the Body of Christ before Paul?

You're some sort of loner MAD with your strange "MAD" philosophy.

I, and most MAD, believe that Paul was the first member of the body of Christ.

 

[Lon]

Lon, according to what Paul said in the following verse can we not know that 1 Corinthians was addressed to the church at Corinth as well as all the Jewish believers no matter where they lived?:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).​

I don't see how this it is possible that this epistle was not addressed to all the Jewish believers living at the time it was written. And here is what Paul told all those Jewish believers:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

Lon, do you think it is possible that the word "we" in that verse can be referring to "all" of the Gentile believers but only "some" of the Jewish believers but not "all" of them?

A bit of background, but feel free to skip to the last paragraph:

Remember I'm learning as I go. I have preconceived notions assuredly, but my goal here is to approach this with an open mind. I'm not opposed to Mid Acts, just 1) realize I agree a lot and 2) have been accused/welcomed as such. The biggest part of this thread is to learn, but "Am I?" certainly needs questions and commitments. Some of these (especially when eschatology is discussed) I need to mull over for awhile.

My question comes because I certainly do see more 'that is the same' whereas most of Mid and especially End Acts see a lot that is different. I'm positive I'm not in line with a lot of Bullinger (have discovered already a good much I don't agree with).

Open Theology, at the time I arrived on TOL about 20 years ago, pushed me toward Calvinism in the sense that I could not logically see but one of two options. In that move, I also have come to examine Covenant Theology and while I do see promises couched in Israel and realized "Grafting in" carries that favoring, but I've also come to realize that some Dispensational theology sticks and, as I've been studying, I've come more and more to realize that I don't overtly disagree with Mid Acts.

I do see Acts talking about churches and Galatians addresses gentiles and Jews mixing. Paul calls for a specific 'separation' but I'm not sure if such entails separate eschatologies (It may since the Apostle Paul mentions it in Romans). Right Divider is correct that Paul is the Apostle to the gentiles so he is also correct that something must be 'gentile' oriented. That said, Peter says he's read all of Paul's 'scriptures' so it is important to argue/discuss through 'what is the same' and 'what is different.' I again appreciate the conversation.

 

[Lon]

Who says otherwise?

Nobody, just talking 'out loud' as it were, what reading you two is conveying.

Many people think that this refers to "salvation from our sin condition":

It does NOT.

My brother from church, a seminary graduate and I, were talking about this exact verse and I agreed with you, and said as much to him. It was at that point he said "only Mid Acts believe this. You are well within Mid Acts (he avoids "MAD") theology.

That does make all believers "spiritual Israel" or some such silliness.

In the sense that Romans says 'we are grafted in?" But to inherit land? :nono: I think there is general agreement but on all? I'm still learning but essentially agree (I think at this point anyway).

Not sure where you're going with this.

One of the 'same' and 'differences' was regarding a whole people called 'Israel' and those who so in their hearts. The Lord Jesus Christ corrected Hebrews (and I've had to do so today), that 'not all in Israel, 'is' Israel. One that is Israel is one internally and now, necessarily, only those with Christ. Point? I'm needing to keep track of what is similar, what is the same, and what is different.

Faith in what?

Don't just look at similarities, also look at differences.

Faith in God, that He will take care of our needs (our largest being removing us from our sin condition).

You simply cannot find "being justified by His grace" in the "gospels" during Christ's earthly ministry (or in Acts prior to the calling of Paul).

Having read Paul talk of a genuine mystery, I've become convinced Mid Acts is correct. Grace alone is part of the mystery, correct?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You're some sort of loner MAD with your strange "MAD" philosophy.

The giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam, believed that all the Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ and that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for those in the Body of Christ.

Paul Sadler, and those who follow his teaching, believe that neither John nor Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus and are not in the Body. They also believe that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

We also read this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A bit of background, but feel free to skip to the last paragraph.

Lon, I appreciate your background material, but I would appreciate it if you would answer my question.

Thanks!

 

[steko]

Lon, I've read you over the years and I appreciate your openness to consider other points of view.
Most others on TOL who have opposed MAD have not appeared to be able to question their own position at least experimentally and listen to what the MAD position actually is.

I would not have anyone blindly accept MAD dispensationalism on any authority than rightly dividing the Word of Truth and coming to a firm conviction according to sound reason.

Press on, brother!

 

[Right Divider]

The giants of MAD, Sir Robert Anderson, J.C. O'Hair, and Cornelius Stam, believed that all the Jewish believers were in the Body of Christ and that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for those in the Body of Christ.

Paul Sadler, and those who follow his teaching, believe that neither John nor Peter called on the name of the Lord Jesus and are not in the Body. They also believe that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works despite the fact that the Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life" (Jn.6:47).​

We also read this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (Jn.3:16).

​

Trying to change the subject again..... you're a piece of work Jerry.

You are a Bible blender par excellence and hardly a dispensationalist at all.

Your ability to rightly divide the word of truth: zero or below.