Have I gone MAD???

[Jerry Shugart]

Thank you, Jerry. Appreciate the input. -Lon

At Your service!

 

[steko]

At Your service!

Welcome back, Jerry!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Welcome back, Jerry!

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The subject which really bothers me is the fact that so many Mid-Acts believers teach that the Hebrew epistles are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ. John Nelson Darby, who often called the father of modern dispensationalism and also held to a Mid Acts dispensational view, believed that the Hebrew epistles are addressed to those in the Body of Christ. So did Sir Robert Anderson and J. C. O'Hair and so did Cornelius Stam. Those men are the giants of Mid Acts dispensationalism.

Then along came Paul Sadler and he taught that the Hebrew epistles are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ and now practically all Mid Acts believers follow Sadler!

Sadler is indeed a man of God but he is not on the same level as the giants and he is clearly wrong.

The Scriptures declare that those who received the Hebrew epistles were taught be be waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus at the rapture and only those in the Body will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[Idolater]

Since Christ, we have actually witnessed the unfolding of the Jewish religion side-by-side with the religion that Christ instituted, the former being the Jewish religion based upon the negation of . . . Christ's Resurrection, and the latter being the also Jewish religion based upon the Resurrection . . . . Both traditions hold the Old Testament in the highest regard, one is living according to the belief that the New Covenant has arrived and the other is still convinced that the Old Covenant is in force, this is all obvious from a careful reading of Hebrews.

:nono: If anything, we read that sacrifices are over and fulfilled in Christ AND the warnings thereof are no longer available to Jews, who have no system of sacrifice any longer BUT for the Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree with all that. What I was doing was setting a node at Christ, and seeing how each Jewish religion or Jewish religious tradition turned out, now two thousand years later, the one believing in Christ, and the other rejecting Him. Both Jewish; one Christian, one Nonchristian. What we see is, the Nonchristian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Jewish, and the Christian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Gentile. So that means that what MAD is saying has happened, it's just that the Jewish religious tradition that rejects Christ, is also not nearly as welcoming to Gentiles as the Jewish religious tradition that believes in Christ is. It's full, of Gentiles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So that means that what MAD is saying has happened, it's just that the Jewish religious tradition that rejects Christ, is also not nearly as welcoming to Gentiles as the Jewish religious tradition that believes in Christ is. It's full, of Gentiles.

Hi Idolater,

Exactly what do mean when you say "that means that what MAD is saying has happened"?

Thanks!

 

[Lon]

The subject which really bothers me is the fact that so many Mid-Acts believers teach that the Hebrew epistles are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ. John Nelson Darby, who often called the father of modern dispensationalism and also held to a Mid Acts dispensational view, believed that the Hebrew epistles are addressed to those in the Body of Christ. So did Sir Robert Anderson and J. C. O'Hair and so did Cornelius Stam. Those men are the giants of Mid Acts dispensationalism.

Then along came Paul Sadler and he taught that the Hebrew epistles are not addressed to those in the Body of Christ and now practically all Mid Acts believers follow Sadler!

Sadler is indeed a man of God but he is not on the same level as the giants and he is clearly wrong.

The Scriptures declare that those who received the Hebrew epistles were taught be be waiting for an imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus at the rapture and only those in the Body will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

How did Anderson and Stam understand Hebrews as for gentiles? About 25 years ago, as I was reading Hebrews, I came across "Our forefathers" (Hebrews 1:1;3:1), "Hebrews," and sacrifices by the high priest for sins (Hebrews 5:1). It is then that Hebrews 6:4-6 describes a uniquely Hebrew problem: Going to the temple to sacrifice for sins that the Lord Jesus Christ had already died for. Gentiles didn't go to the temple but the application would have been easier for the gentile: he/she simply would not become a proselyte. So while Hebrews 'can' apply to gentiles, it is a message strongly for Jewish Christians, as I understand it. How did these men see otherwise?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How did Anderson and Stam understand Hebrews as for gentiles? About 25 years ago, as I was reading Hebrews, I came across "Our forefathers" (Hebrews 1:1;3:1), "Hebrews," and sacrifices by the high priest for sins (Hebrews 5:1). It is then that Hebrews 6:4-6 describes a uniquely Hebrew problem: Going to the temple to sacrifice for sins that the Lord Jesus Christ had already died for. Gentiles didn't go to the temple but the application would have been easier for the gentile: he/she simply would not become a proselyte. So while Hebrews 'can' apply to gentiles, it is a message strongly for Jewish Christians, as I understand it. How did these men see otherwise?

Lon, there are both Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) and Paul, at times, addressed Gentiles as Gentiles (Ro.11:13) so it should should surprise no one that the other apostles would address Jews as Jews.

Yes, the book of Hebrews is for Jewish Christians especially, but the book is addressed to those with a heavenly calling (Heb.3:3:1), and the Gentiles cannot be excluded from that category (compare Ephesians 2:6 with Hebrews 12:22).

Those who believe like Paul Sadler, that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is not for the Body of Christ, insist that the doctrine found in those epistles is for a furture dispensation. However, that idea is ridiculous because those epistles were written during the present dispensation and received by people living in the present dispensation. If those epistles are for a future dispensation then the authors of those epistles would have made it plain to those who received those epistles that they are for a future dispensation. And none of those authors made it plain to anyone that the doctrine contained in their epistles are for a future dispensation.

 

[Lon]

Lon, there are both Jews and Gentiles in the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) and Paul, at times, addressed Gentiles as Gentiles (Ro.11:13) so it should should surprise no one that the other apostles would address Jews as Jews.

Yes, the book of Hebrews is for Jewish Christians especially, but the book is addressed to those with a heavenly calling (Heb.3:3:1), and the Gentiles cannot be excluded from that category (compare Ephesians 2:6 with Hebrews 12:22).

This seems closer to 2nd Acts Dispensationalism.

Those who believe like Paul Sadler, that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is not for the Body of Christ, insist that the doctrine found in those epistles is for a furture dispensation. However, that idea is ridiculous because those epistles were written during the present dispensation and received by people living in the present dispensation. If those epistles are for a future dispensation then the authors of those epistles would have made it plain to those who received those epistles that they are for a future dispensation. And none of those authors made it plain to anyone that the doctrine contained in their epistles are for a future dispensation.

Interesting, I'd say it applied to a past dispensation, the time of transition between Jewish and Christian, as the sacrificial system for Jews is no longer extent. When I first understood this was the problem implicit in Hebrews: That of following two different God-given dynamics, the need for the book was essential at the time. I'm not sure how a gentile can directly apply Hebrews, other than looking nowhere else than Christ for salvation.

Again, appreciate your input. -Lon

 

[Idolater]

Hi Idolater,

Exactly what do mean when you say "that means that what MAD is saying has happened"?

Thanks!

That there is historical evidence of two distinct Jewish religious traditions branching outward in time, one Christian and one Nonchristian, and that it is the Christian Jewish religious tradition (that believes in Christ) that is full of Gentiles, and the Nonchristian Jewish religious tradition is the one still primarily ethnically Jewish.

 

[Right Divider]

However, that idea is ridiculous because those epistles were written during the present dispensation and received by people living in the present dispensation.

Again you confuse a dispensation with a period of time.

You're a smart guy. I'm surprised that you continue to make this basic mistake.

 

[Lon]

Hi Idolater,

Exactly what do mean when you say "that means that what MAD is saying has happened"?

Thanks!

I'd think he's saying that he believes MAD is correct on this point but the two branches of Jews had me a bit confused...

I agree with all that... two thousand years later, the one believing in Christ, and the other rejecting Him.

Both Jewish; one Christian, one Nonchristian.

This much is pretty easy to follow...

What we see is, the Nonchristian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Jewish, and the Christian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Gentile. So that means that what MAD is saying has happened, it's just that the Jewish religious tradition that rejects Christ, is also not nearly as welcoming to Gentiles as the Jewish religious tradition that believes in Christ is. It's full, of Gentiles.

... I suppose in the sense that any Jew following Christianity necessarily is doing so 'as gentiles' also do? "Gentile" in this case might be better said, simply "grace" but I think I realize they cannot be practicing Jews, thus have to join Messianic or gentile churches (If I'm following). -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again you confuse a dispensation with a period of time.

You're a smart guy. I'm surprised that you continue to make this basic mistake.

I never said that a "dispensation" is a period of time. But do you deny that a dispensation covers a period of time?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That there is historical evidence of two distinct Jewish religious traditions branching outward in time, one Christian and one Nonchristian, and that it is the Christian Jewish religious tradition (that believes in Christ) that is full of Gentiles, and the Nonchristian Jewish religious tradition is the one still primarily ethnically Jewish.

Please allow me clear up the confusion concerning the question, "Where the authors of the Hebrew epistles in the Body of Christ?" In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

Pastor Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

 

[Right Divider]

I never said that a "dispensation" is a period of time. But do you deny that a dispensation covers a period of time?

The wording of your post most certainly implied just that... let's see it again.

However, that idea is ridiculous because those epistles were written during the present dispensation and received by people living in the present dispensation.

How else am I supposed to understand this Jerry?

"were written during the present dispensation" certainly implies that God cannot have two dispensations running at the same time for two groups of people.

The previous dispensation did not simply vanish when the new one began. Those in the previous dispensation continued under the rules given to them.

I know that you have the confused notion that the others "switched dispensations" even before the present dispensation began, as you've told me before.

 

[Right Divider]

Please allow me clear up the confusion concerning the question, "Where the authors of the Hebrew epistles in the Body of Christ?" In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

Pastor Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

Bible blending at its finest.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The wording of your post most certainly implied just that... let's see it again.


How else am I supposed to understand this Jerry?

"were written during the present dispensation" certainly implies that God cannot have two dispensations running at the same time for two groups of people.

The previous dispensation did not simply vanish when the new one began. Those in the previous dispensation continued under the rules given to them.

I know that you have the confused notion that the others "switched dispensations" even before the present dispensation began, as you've told me before.

Of course you didn't answer my question. Do you deny that a dispensation covers a period of time?

Do you think that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for a future dispensation and not for the present one? If your answer is "yes" then give me the evidence which you think proves you are right.

Bible blending at it's finest.

Of course you just ignored my points and accuse me of "Bible blending." But you gave ZERO evidence that anything I said blends the Bible.

Could you actually give an intelligent response to the points which I made?

 

[Lon]

Of course you didn't answer my question. Do you deny that a dispensation covers a period of time?

Do you think that the doctrine contained in the Hebrew epistles is for a future dispensation and not for the present one? If your answer is "yes" then give me the evidence which you think proves you are right.

Again you confuse a dispensation with a period of time.

You're a smart guy. I'm surprised that you continue to make this basic mistake.

Hebrews 1:1-2 Acts 17:30

Wordnik defines Dispensationalism: A doctrine prevalent in some forms of Protestant Christianity that divides history into distinct periods, each marked by a different dispensation or relationship between God and humanity.

I've seen it defined "God worked with different people, in different ways, at different times" thus I see how 'time' comes into play. Is there are reason/confusion over the definition that is fairly important?

Of course you just ignored my points and accuse me of "Bible blending." But you gave ZERO evidence that anything I said blends the Bible.

Could you actually give an intelligent response to the points which I made?

Not sure if I can help make this meaningful...

Please allow me clear up the confusion concerning the question, "Where the authors of the Hebrew epistles in the Body of Christ?" In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

I'd think RD sees two separate peoples, with an apostle to gentiles, and the rest over Jerusalem. I think (correction if needed) that what changed during the mystery, was also a change in the Apostles reaching to the ends of the earth. Most of these stayed with the Jewish Christians and so, while in Christ the two are one, the ministrations were separate (again appreciate input of what I'm grasping, what needs input).

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

Pastor Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

From above, you are addressing whether the author of Hebrew was 'in the body of Christ.' I had a hard time getting all of what Idolater was saying, so didn't see whether the Hebrew writers were Christians/in the BoC at that point :idunno: Some of the connections in conversation are loose at this point for me.

​​​​​​​

I agree with all that. What I was ... seeing how each Jewish religion or Jewish religious tradition turned out, now two thousand years later, the one believing in Christ, and the other rejecting Him. Both Jewish; one Christian, one Nonchristian. What we see is, the Nonchristian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Jewish, and the Christian Jewish religious tradition is mostly Gentile. So that means that what MAD is saying has happened, it's just that the Jewish religious tradition that rejects Christ, is also not nearly as welcoming to Gentiles as the Jewish religious tradition that believes in Christ is. It's full, of Gentiles.

 

[Idolater]

Please allow me clear up the confusion concerning the question, "Where the authors of the Hebrew epistles in the Body of Christ?" In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

Paul tells all the believers on the face of the earth at that time that we are "all" baptized into the Body of Christ.

Pastor Stam wrote the following commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:2 and 12:13:

"There are other evidences that the kingdom saints of Paul's day became members of the Body of Christ. In I Corinthians 1:2, Paul addresses his letter to the Corinthian church, 'with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs [those in every place] and ours [those with Paul].' And he says to 'all' these believers 'in every place': 'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles' (I Cor. 12:13). How can this be made to exclude the Judean believers?" (Cornelius Stam, Commentary on Galatians [Stevens Point, WI: Worzalla Publishing Co., 1998], 198).

I agree with all that. It is the Catholic view after all.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Hebrews 1:1-2 Acts 17:30

Wordnik defines Dispensationalism: A doctrine prevalent in some forms of Protestant Christianity that divides history into distinct periods, each marked by a different dispensation or relationship between God and humanity.

I've seen it defined "God worked with different people, in different ways, at different times" thus I see how 'time' comes into play. Is there are reason/confusion over the definition that is fairly important?

A "dispensation" is essentially a " stewardship." And stewardships happen during a period of time but a stewardship is not a period of time.

From above, you are addressing whether the author of Hebrew was 'in the body of Christ.' I had a hard time getting all of what Idolater was saying, so didn't see whether the Hebrew writers were Christians/in the BoC at that point

Again, allow me clear up the confusion concerning the question, "Were the authors of the Hebrew epistles in the Body of Christ?" In the introduction found in the first epistle to the church at Corinth we read the following:

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's" (1 Cor.1:2).

Paul's words in this epistle were not just addressed to the church at Corinth but also to "all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That can only mean that Paul addressed this epistle to every Christian, whether they be Gentile or Jew, who were alive when he wrote this epistle. It is obvious that the Twelve are members of the Body of Christ because this is what Paul told all believers later in the same epistle:

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).

So Paul tells all the believers (all those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus) that "we are all baptized into the Body of Christ, whether we be Jews or Gentiles. Since John and Peter and the author of the book of Hebrews called on the name of the Lord Jesus they were all baptized into the Body of Christ.