Gun Control

Ktoyou

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The man was only prescribed valium for anxiety. He had a high IQ, no record and passed all background checks. There is no way to predict who will do this.

Yes there is, there really is. I bet the news comes out with more evidence over the next week. I am sure there were times he went off, into violent statement; however, his family wanted to believe he was 'just angry, just talking", npw they seem to be covering up about how surprised they were this had happened, yet I know well, if they had witnessed his spats, they now feel guilty they had not reported him to the police.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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It seems that the gun control laws are simply ineffective. It seems that when somebody has decided to kill others, laws dealing with guns are just no longer important to them. Stricter laws may prevent some shooting but as recent news indicates, people have access to guns through family members. Parkland taught us that the laws that we have in-place are not being enforced.
 

Town Heretic

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It seems that the gun control laws are simply ineffective.
It really doesn't, which is why countries and states with stricter law on the point are much safer from gun violence than those who don't bother, as I've noted repeatedly using comparative data on states and countries.

It seems that when somebody has decided to kill others, laws dealing with guns are just no longer important to them.
Gun laws aren't about changing hearts, they're about restricting access.

Stricter laws may prevent some shooting but as recent news indicates, people have access to guns through family members.
Not may and they prevent a great deal, comparatively. Also, if we restrict the types of weapons and how those weapons are stored, etc. we can impact second hand possession. It will take time and effort, but the cost of doing nothing is worse.

Parkland taught us that the laws that we have in-place are not being enforced.
Separate issue, but one to tackle.
 

CabinetMaker

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It really doesn't, which is why countries and states with stricter law on the point are much safer from gun violence than those who don't bother, as I've noted repeatedly using comparative data on states and countries.


Gun laws aren't about changing hearts, they're about restricting access.


Not may and they prevent a great deal, comparatively. Also, if we restrict the types of weapons and how those weapons are stored, etc. we can impact second hand possession. It will take time and effort, but the cost of doing nothing is worse.


Separate issue, but one to tackle.

I still not think that it is primarily a gun control issue. There was a time in this country when you went to the hardware store, paid your money and walked out with a gun and there were no mass shootings. There was a time when people open carried, still legal here in Colorado, and we did not have mas shootings. Guns have not changed much. Something else has changed: society. For some reason our society now produces people that think a gun is an answer to to their problems. If you restrict access to one weapon they simply find another as recent news stories from aroud the globe show.

Somebody is going to say that guns have changed with access to semi automatic rifles and pistols. Technology has changed but look at another aspect of gun control:

While I do favor some additional gun access changes, I do not support restricting access to semi-auto rifles. I am also not naive enough to believe that more restrictive laws will solve the problem. It is a problem with hearts, not tools.
 

Town Heretic

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I still not think that it is primarily a gun control issue.
I'd say you're mistaken. It's an access/type/cost issue. We've made increasingly deadly weapons more and more affordable and accessible.

There was a time in this country when you went to the hardware store, paid your money and walked out with a gun and there were no mass shootings.
And the guns we bought weren't a bump stock away from a submachine gun. They were rifles and shotguns, and a lot of revolvers. Add that seachange to the numbers game (more people/more crazy per) and it's a recipe for disaster.

There was a time when people open carried, still legal here in Colorado, and we did not have mass shootings. Guns have not changed much.
They really have, and so has the cost/availability of the more lethal, the sort perfect for shooters like the one in Las Vegas. But even if that wasn't the case, the argument for restricting access would remain as viable and for the same reasons. Even if we were somehow convinced that people have turned more violent, and maybe especially if we were convinced, restricting access to those weapons would remain a pragmatic and intelligent response.

Something else has changed: society. For some reason our society now produces people that think a gun is an answer to to their problems. If you restrict access to one weapon they simply find another as recent news stories from around the globe show.
That's not really the case either, because there aren't realistic alternatives that afford the same opportunity for the type of violence we see in mass shootings.

While I do favor some additional gun access changes, I do not support restricting access to semi-auto rifles.
Then I'd suggest not much will change and the mounting death toll will eventually alter your position or overwhelm it with the majority of the populace. The numbers are already moving in that direction.

I am also not naive enough to believe that more restrictive laws will solve the problem.
It's not naive. It's empirically true, which is why the numbers line up as I've set out repeatedly. Universal, tough gun laws have real, measurable impact on public safety and gun violence.

It is a problem with hearts, not tools.
It's both and always has been, but the latter is more accessible and cheap and the former hasn't grown up enough to make that latter a non-issue.
 

CabinetMaker

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I'd say you're mistaken. It's an access/type/cost issue. We've made increasingly deadly weapons more and more affordable and accessible.


And the guns we bought weren't a bump stock away from a submachine gun. They were rifles and shotguns, and a lot of revolvers. Add that seachange to the numbers game (more people/more crazy per) and it's a recipe for disaster.


They really have, and so has the cost/availability of the more lethal, the sort perfect for shooters like the one in Las Vegas. But even if that wasn't the case, the argument for restricting access would remain as viable and for the same reasons. Even if we were somehow convinced that people have turned more violent, and maybe especially if we were convinced, restricting access to those weapons would remain a pragmatic and intelligent response.


That's not really the case either, because there aren't realistic alternatives that afford the same opportunity for the type of violence we see in mass shootings.


Then I'd suggest not much will change and the mounting death toll will eventually alter your position or overwhelm it with the majority of the populace. The numbers are already moving in that direction.


It's not naive. It's empirically true, which is why the numbers line up as I've set out repeatedly. Universal, tough gun laws have real, measurable impact on public safety and gun violence.


It's both and always has been, but the latter is more accessible and cheap and the former hasn't grown up enough to make that latter a non-issue.

With great freedom comes great responsibility. I am not willing to sacrifice our freedoms because some people cannot accept the responsibilities they should. History has repeatedly proven that unarmed populations are EXTREMELY susceptible to those who are armed. Most recently, Raqqa. I also understand why we have the Second Amendment in the first place and I believe that it is a right that should remain.

Restricting gun access will prevent those shootings where somebody bought a gun first. But it will not prevent shootings where people have stolen guns from family. It will not prevent shootings from those that convince others to buy a gun for them. Anything short of Australian style gun confiscation will not prevent mass shootings. Shockingly, it has come to light that not all Australian's did not turn in their guns and the transition to a gun free society has not been the bed of roses that they thought.

The larger problem is always with the heart. Without a heart willing to pick up a gun or a knife or build a bomb, a gun remains in its case, the knife is used for cooking and the bomb materials remain fuel for the tractor and fertilizer for the fields.
 

Danoh

New member
With great freedom comes great responsibility. I am not willing to sacrifice our freedoms because some people cannot accept the responsibilities they should. History has repeatedly proven that unarmed populations are EXTREMELY susceptible to those who are armed. Most recently, Raqqa. I also understand why we have the Second Amendment in the first place and I believe that it is a right that should remain.

Restricting gun access will prevent those shootings where somebody bought a gun first. But it will not prevent shootings where people have stolen guns from family. It will not prevent shootings from those that convince others to buy a gun for them. Anything short of Australian style gun confiscation will not prevent mass shootings. Shockingly, it has come to light that not all Australian's did not turn in their guns and the transition to a gun free society has not been the bed of roses that they thought.

The larger problem is always with the heart. Without a heart willing to pick up a gun or a knife or build a bomb, a gun remains in its case, the knife is used for cooking and the bomb materials remain fuel for the tractor and fertilizer for the fields.

Great post.

:thumb:

Rom. 5:6-8.
 

Town Heretic

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I am not willing to sacrifice our freedoms because some people cannot accept the responsibilities they should.
I'm not asking you to. I'm suggesting the current restrictions on firearms are insufficient due to the increased capacity for destruction coupled with an affordability/access that poses a demonstrable danger to the public.

The firearms the founders possessed were more closely associated with the guns I support, breech loading shotguns, bolt action rifles, and revolvers.

History has repeatedly proven that unarmed populations are EXTREMELY susceptible to those who are armed. Most recently, Raqqa. I also understand why we have the Second Amendment in the first place and I believe that it is a right that should remain.
I also support the 2nd Amendment. This isn't about the abolition of it, but where the reasonable line of restraint should be. And every right has that line.

Anything short of Australian style gun confiscation will not prevent mass shootings.
Actually, there are a number of lesser approaches to strict and universal gun laws in our democratic, industrial cousins and all of them work much better than our laws do at managing the prevention of mass shootings and other gun violence.

Shockingly, it has come to light that not all Australian's did not turn in their guns and the transition to a gun free society has not been the bed of roses that they thought.
Not so shockingly, gun violence has reduced as a result of the effort. Not one mass murder by gun since the Port Arthur massacre had the people and government of Australia responding with new laws. That's zero in 22 years. In the decade prior there had been 11.

The larger problem is always with the heart.
And yet, where societies change the law, they profoundly impact gun violence and mass shootings. So maybe lax laws invite the wrong heart, or maybe they just make a thing easier or possible, give an impulse born in frustration or anger or mental illness an easy outlet.

Time to stop that.
 

CabinetMaker

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I'm not asking you to. I'm suggesting the current restrictions on firearms are insufficient due to the increased capacity for destruction coupled with an affordability/access that poses a demonstrable danger to the public.

The firearms the founders possessed were more closely associated with the guns I support, breech loading shotguns, bolt action rifles, and revolvers.


I also support the 2nd Amendment. This isn't about the abolition of it, but where the reasonable line of restraint should be. And every right has that line.


Actually, there are a number of lesser approaches to strict and universal gun laws in our democratic, industrial cousins and all of them work much better than our laws do at managing the prevention of mass shootings and other gun violence.


Not so shockingly, gun violence has reduced as a result of the effort. Not one mass murder by gun since the Port Arthur massacre had the people and government of Australia responding with new laws. That's zero in 22 years. In the decade prior there had been 11.


And yet, where societies change the law, they profoundly impact gun violence and mass shootings. So maybe lax laws invite the wrong heart, or maybe they just make a thing easier or possible, give an impulse born in frustration or anger or mental illness an easy outlet.

Time to stop that.
The Parkland shooting reveals the problem with more laws. If all the existing laws had been followed that shooting would not have happened. More laws mean nothing when we are nat able/willing to enforce existing law.
 

Town Heretic

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The Parkland shooting reveals the problem with more laws. If all the existing laws had been followed that shooting would not have happened. More laws mean nothing when we are nat able/willing to enforce existing law.
Rather, the rule is that where strong, universal gun laws exist you have a much lower incident of gun violence and mass shootings than where those laws and restrictions aren't in evidence. True comparing states and true comparing nations.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Constitution: Living or Legal Document?

Constitution: Living or Legal Document?

I will weigh in on this frequent topic although I do so with much circumspection.

I tend to see the appeals to the right to bear arms in this day and age revolving around the amendment as a defense against our government becoming Gilead (HT: Handmaiden's Tale) or perhaps even more dire (HT: The Man in the Castle). I readily grant that these sort of metaphors (less anachronistically so) related to the issue were fresh in the mind's of the founders.

It seems the arguments for a living document (Bork, Marshall) or a legal document (Scalia) with respect to the Constitution underlie virtually all the arguments revolving around the Second Amendment.

- Which of these views of the Constitution holds the greater weight in these arguments?
- Is every man a militia member?
- Were the "arms" in the minds of the authors in 1791 the "arms" now accessible to the everyman today?
- Where does the regulation of "arms" bump up against the right to bear said "arms"?

No hidden agenda is at work here. I have an opinion on the topic and have no problem making it clear:
I do not see how the possession by just anyone of "arms" that are distinctly rapid fire in support of mass killings (of any living thing) in very short time periods something that should be made available to "the people to keep and bear", when "people" means folks like ordinary citizens like myself.​

Help me think more about this topic. What am I overlooking, in error about, got right, or am on the right track at least?

AMR
 

intojoy

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Rather, the rule is that where strong, universal gun laws exist you have a much lower incident of gun violence and mass shootings than where those laws and restrictions aren't in evidence. True comparing states and true comparing nations.

Is that you or the Thunderbird talking?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
I will weigh in on this frequent topic although I do so with much circumspection.

I tend to see the appeals to the right to bear arms in this day and age revolving around the amendment as a defense against our government becoming Gilead (HT: Handmaiden's Tale) or perhaps even more dire (HT: The Man in the Castle). I readily grant that these sort of metaphors (less anachronistically so) related to the issue were fresh in the mind's of the founders.

It seems the arguments for a living document (Bork, Marshall) or a legal document (Scalia) with respect to the Constitution underlie virtually all the arguments revolving around the Second Amendment.

- Which of these views of the Constitution holds the greater weight in these arguments?
- Is every man a militia member?
- Were the "arms" in the minds of the authors in 1791 the "arms" now accessible to the everyman today?
- Where does the regulation of "arms" bump up against the right to bear said "arms"?

No hidden agenda is at work here. I have an opinion on the topic and have no problem making it clear:
I do not see how the possession by just anyone of "arms" that are distinctly rapid fire in support of mass killings (of any living thing) in very short time periods something that should be made available to "the people to keep and bear", when "people" means folks like ordinary citizens like myself.​

Help me think more about this topic. What am I overlooking, in error about, got right, or am on the right track at least?

AMR
When our Founding Fathers wrote the second amendment there was only one type of gun and it was used by everybody. I tend to think that ey intended that citizens be as well armed as the military to both defend this country in times of need and to stop a tyrannical government should that need arise.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Rather, the rule is that where strong, universal gun laws exist you have a much lower incident of gun violence and mass shootings than where those laws and restrictions aren't in evidence. True comparing states and true comparing nations.
Laws, including God's laws, cannot prevent crime, laws can only define the crime and prescribe a punishment. What additional laws would have prevented any of these shootings?
 

Town Heretic

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Laws, including God's laws, cannot prevent crime, laws can only define the crime and prescribe a punishment. What additional laws would have prevented any of these shootings?
If you mean laws won't alter behavior and outcome, won't impact practices we view as destructive and violative of right, you're objectively, observably mistaken. By way of example, seatbelt laws and speeding laws have empirically impacted driving habits and saved lives.

It's equally easy to note that every state with the weakest gun laws here has the highest gun violence per 100k of its citizenry while the more stringent gun laws by state carry the lesser incidences. I've linked to those statistics in the 500 mass shooting thread, along with providing links and data on the dramatic disparity in gun violence and mass shooting here compared to our industrial-democratic cousins in Europe, where strong, universal gun laws are in place.

Laws can and do, in fact, prevent crimes. And in this case, at the very least, they can impact the degree of injury done and lives lost...In the case of guns it's not even that hard to see why. A man who is disturbed and angry within easy reach of an automatic rifle is much more dangerous and likely to harm a large number of people than is a man who is disturbed and angry and within easy reach of a hammer. We can impact how easy (and therefore how likely) it is for someone like that to harm a large number of people within a timeframe that makes it almost impossible to respond in time to stop him.
 
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