Grandstand discussion: "Ghost's Views on The Nature of Christ"

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Town Heretic

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Dave's main "fault" is that he cares too much about the gospel, and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. I admire that in the man.
With respect, STP, while I don't doubt that Dave cares and is driven in his understanding, I don't see that as the fault here. He recognizes his obligation as a worker for Christ and attempts to toil in that field. But his principle fault is that he frequently puts his sense of personal dignity above that mission and exercises a want of control over his tongue in response to perceived slight and even less understandably, disagreement of a less personally directed manner. The things he says in his outrage would never be uttered by the one he represents and shouldn't be in defense of Biblical principle as he sees it. The language he used here is indefensible and unbecoming of a brother in general. More so in relation to any discourse on matters pertaining to the Holy. A man of God should speak as a man of God and his language and conduct must be above reproof or it works to no good end and undermines the faith.

Dave is smart enough and old enough to know that. He chooses his blindness. Even after the rush of anger his response to my objection wasn't to see what moved me to make it and examine his own misconduct, but to focus on how he felt wronged and to lash out at others...:sigh: That's just not getting the job done.
 

Guyver

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Dave's main "fault" is that he cares too much about the gospel, and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. I admire that in the man.


Who's Dave? Are we still talking about Ghost?

What do you mean he cares too much about the gospel and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell?

He's told me to go to hell two or three times already.

He's called me and my family a bunch of Christless perverts.

That's not caring too much about the gospel or a person's salvation; it's just a fail.
 

graceandpeace

New member
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaulToPaul
Dave's main "fault" is that he cares too much about the gospel, and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. I admire that in the man.

No, his main fault is that he has replaced the gospel with his theories.

The gospel does not entail that we believe what is contained in
'ghost's theories of what one must believe to be saved.

He adds things that are not required....and, if you speak of a non essential, and, he does not agree with that particular non essential, according to him, you simply are not saved.

Seems to me alot of people on here do that.:kookoo:
 

graceandpeace

New member
:first::first::first:
I disagree with AMR on any number of things. I don't support the Calvinist view on any number of points that distinguish it, but I have never known him to lie and dislike the easy way in which so many use the term. Men can differ. Men can believe and address a difference and still see it differently.

AMR's position in relation to ghost is his to make and ghost's to counter, as was their agreement. This came as no surprise to either party and both entered into the discourse with their eyes open.

Now I have had my character attacked on more than one occasion. ASCon did it with regularity and I responded without forgetting my responsibility as a member of the Body of Christ to conduct myself within the bounds of decency. Foul language has no place in the mouth of a Christian, especially in the mouth of one defending a particular understanding of the faith. And no, neither does a lie, but a lie in theological circles seems to me to frequently be a matter of investment in a particular context. An absolute misstatement of fact can be set out for all to see and the damage of attempting to perpetrate a fraud will do more against the utterer than it ever did against the unjustly accused.

:e4e:
 

CabinetMaker

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I've said it before and it needs to be said again. Ghost does not need our ridicule and scorn, he deeds our prayers. He is, after all, a brother in Christ. And I have seen some of his posts when he is calm and collected and he does have a very good understanding of the Gospel even though is application of the Gospel may be a bit lacking. I have been attacked by him more than once and have a civil discussion with him upon occasion. I have needled him in an effort to get him to understand some of my points which probably is not the best way to engage him.

So Ghost will leave us for a while. He will return either as Ghost or a new incarnation and when he does, we welcome home our prodigal son with open arms.

Remember the Golden Rule - Treat others as you want to be treated. That does not mean that when somebody mistreats you you have the right the mistreat them in return. What it means is that regardless of how somebody treats you, you ALWAYS treat them as you want to be treated.
 

graceandpeace

New member
I've said it before and it needs to be said again. Ghost does not need our ridicule and scorn, he deeds our prayers. He is, after all, a brother in Christ. And I have seen some of his posts when he is calm and collected and he does have a very good understanding of the Gospel even though is application of the Gospel may be a bit lacking. I have been attacked by him more than once and have a civil discussion with him upon occasion. I have needled him in an effort to get him to understand some of my points which probably is not the best way to engage him.

So Ghost will leave us for a while. He will return either as Ghost or a new incarnation and when he does, we welcome home our prodigal son with open arms.

Remember the Golden Rule - Treat others as you want to be treated. That does not mean that when somebody mistreats you you have the right the mistreat them in return. What it means is that regardless of how somebody treats you, you ALWAYS treat them as you want to be treated.


:thumb:I agree.
 

godrulz

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Dave's main "fault" is that he cares too much about the gospel, and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. I admire that in the man.

I know mature believers who are passionate for Christ/gospel/lost. They act nothing like poor Dave. The problem is that he has zeal without knowledge/wisdom. He turns things into us/me vs them because he adds to the gospel (sozoisms). He does not speak truth in love, but displays arrogance, ignorance, flesh. He is not the Messiah, not a guru, but he is a godplayer, jury, judge, executioner. He has a stress/anger issue, instability, lack of discernment, etc. He also has other good qualities that could be channeled if he truly walked in the Spirit and had the mind of Christ. It does not help that he is not under authority of local church leadership, but is a Lone Ranger without checks/balances.

Godly believers who don't want anyone to go to hell (including Jesus/Paul) do not act like he does. He needs to repent and grow, not be coddled. He has an ego and wants to be right at all costs. He fails to see when he is wrong. Pride goes before a fall. More heat than light follows in his wake.

He argues more about doctrinal things than the gospel. He does not share the gospel in a winsome way, but plays the role of accuser of the brethren creating confusion and chaos, not clarity.

I have not seen him in person, but I would not be surprised if he turns more people off than on to Christ. The gospel can be an offense, but we should not be personally offensive for no good reason.

He may also suffer from short man only child syndrome (SMOCS).
 

godrulz

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Who's Dave? Are we still talking about Ghost?

What do you mean he cares too much about the gospel and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell?

He's told me to go to hell two or three times already.

He's called me and my family a bunch of Christless perverts.

That's not caring too much about the gospel or a person's salvation; it's just a fail.

He tells any 'opponent' to jump in front of a train, go to hell and drag your family there, can't wait to see you fry, etc.

He is an arrogant, insecure megalomaniac. I will also be the first to love, restore, welcome him (my wife fears he will find out where we live).
 

Town Heretic

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I've said it before and it needs to be said again. Ghost does not need our ridicule and scorn, he deeds our prayers. He is, after all, a brother in Christ. And I have seen some of his posts when he is calm and collected and he does have a very good understanding of the Gospel even though is application of the Gospel may be a bit lacking. I have been attacked by him more than once and have a civil discussion with him upon occasion. I have needled him in an effort to get him to understand some of my points which probably is not the best way to engage him.

So Ghost will leave us for a while. He will return either as Ghost or a new incarnation and when he does, we welcome home our prodigal son with open arms.

Remember the Golden Rule - Treat others as you want to be treated. That does not mean that when somebody mistreats you you have the right the mistreat them in return. What it means is that regardless of how somebody treats you, you ALWAYS treat them as you want to be treated.
Couldn't agree more. I was saddened by his failure here and remain fond of Dave else. God bless, keep and instruct him and may he return to us the better for it.
 

godrulz

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Couldn't agree more. I was saddened by his failure here and remain fond of Dave else. God bless, keep and instruct him and may he return to us the better for it.

This has happened many times. He is yet to return changed since he probably thinks he has no faults and the rest of us are the problem. He is like a martyr for his own cause (like cults who feel vindicated if they are persecuted).
 

Guyver

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He tells any 'opponent' to jump in front of a train, go to hell and drag your family there, can't wait to see you fry, etc.

He is an arrogant, insecure megalomaniac. I will also be the first to love, restore, welcome him (my wife fears he will find out where we live).

You can't resore one who doesn't repent. There's nothing to restore from. He doesn't believe in repentance, except unto salvation.

Therefore, he doesn't believe he has done any wrong. If you attempt to "welcome" him or restore him; you miss the point.

Until he acknowledges his faults, weaknesses, and sins; they will continue just as they always have.

PS. To Cabinet Maker. If you want to pray for him; may I suggest you begin to pray that he learns how to repent.
 

graceandpeace

New member
You can't resore one who doesn't repent. There's nothing to restore from. He doesn't believe in repentance, except unto salvation. Therefore, he doesn't believe he has done any wrong. If you attempt to "welcome" him or restore him; you miss the point.

Until he acknowledges his faults, weaknesses, and sins; they will continue just as they always have.

PS. To Cabinet Maker. If you want to pray for him; may I suggest you begin to pray that he learns how to repent.

I believe repentance is a one time thing, too...(not that not knowing that is a salvational issue).

The problem does not come forth from there, in mho..it is derived from the false thought that we, as christians are NOT under a 'form' of law. Some have simply forgotten that Faith worketh by love..and, without love, there is no 'light' to anyone. Not that we work up this love; but it is the result of a changed heart. A heart that has been truly converted.

It is faith that worketh by LOVE; that is the law of Christ that we are under...and, hatred has no place in it.

He whom hates his brother, and openly shows it has not submitted to the law of Christ. I am NOT saying they are not saved...most of the time, these immature christians have to learn the hard way that God really does demand more from us than just what comes out of our mouths...Jesus said this on the matter:

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.


Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

A changed heart is walking by the law of Christ, via love that has been placed in it...by the working of the holy spirit.

We cannot judge anyone on this; as saved or unsaved because we all walk in the flesh and allow the flesh to rule us at times...that is why I do not judge anyone on this board...what we can judge is the actions..and, simply put, any actions that come forth from a mindset of 'hate' is not of God....

We are even commanded to love our enemies....if that is love that has been displayed here, I don't want any part of it.
 

Brother Ducky

New member
Dave's main "fault" is that he cares too much about the gospel, and doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. I admire that in the man.

I hope you are right about Dave, but I do not think his behavior here reflects that concern.

Across threads and over time and manifestation I think his views and theology to be outside the mainstream of Christian thought and belief. He might be right. I don't think so, but perhaps.

It seems to me that if you are going against 2000 years of tradition and thought [not that tradition has to be correct] you should be able assert what you believe, defend it from Scripture, interact with previously established points of view, and point out the weaknesses of those points of view in a logical and rational way, which in no way precludes passion.

Name-calling and insulting those whose beliefs you do not hold is hardly the way of making your point. Especially when you hold ideas that are on the fringe.

Peace,
Rick
 

Guyver

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I believe repentance is a one time thing, too...(not that not knowing that is a salvational issue).

It is faith that worketh by LOVE; that is the law of Christ that we are under...and, hatred has no place in it.

A changed heart is walking by the law of Christ, via love that has been placed in it...by the working of the holy spirit.

I agree with much of what you said here. But I do not agree that a person is only to repent one time. Sure, maybe the repentance of unbelief is a one time thing as it pertains to salvation; but to say that one never needs to repent again after that is entirely unBiblical. It's so clear, I don't see how anyone would view it any other way.

PM me if you want some scriptural support for that statement.

As far as Christianity being a religion of love, you are on the money. That's exactly what it is. We love Him because He first loved us. And, we are to love our brothers - that's pure Bible.
 

Guyver

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He does not speak truth in love, but displays arrogance, ignorance, flesh. He is not the Messiah, not a guru, but he is a godplayer, jury, judge, executioner. He has a stress/anger issue, instability, lack of discernment, etc. He also has other good qualities that could be channeled if he truly walked in the Spirit and had the mind of Christ. It does not help that he is not under authority of local church leadership, but is a Lone Ranger without checks/balances.

Godly believers who don't want anyone to go to hell (including Jesus/Paul) do not act like he does. He needs to repent and grow, not be coddled. He has an ego and wants to be right at all costs. He fails to see when he is wrong. Pride goes before a fall. More heat than light follows in his wake.

He argues more about doctrinal things than the gospel. He does not share the gospel in a winsome way, but plays the role of accuser of the brethren creating confusion and chaos, not clarity.

I have not seen him in person, but I would not be surprised if he turns more people off than on to Christ. The gospel can be an offense, but we should not be personally offensive for no good reason.

He may also suffer from short man only child syndrome (SMOCS).

You have said so much that's on the money here, I don't even know where to start. To me, someone who truly believes would be passionate about sharing their faith; and they would find a proper way to do it. Anyone who really believes the Bible wouldn't want their worst enemy to go to hell - let alone someone who already says they believe in Jesus Christ.

As far as the other issues go, I also agree; and as I said very early in this thread - I truly believe I've been able to see why.

I'm just going to list a few attributes of a person with APD. I've personally known someone who has this. They have a lot of superficial charm and can appear very intelligent. Yet they also display other characteristics, that are reflective of extreme egotism or narcissism. These are just a few.

Apparent lack of remorse or empathy for others
Persistent lying or stealing
Poor behavioral controls — expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper
A history of childhood conduct disorder
Promiscuity
Tendency to violate the boundaries and rights of others Aggressive, often violent behavior; prone to getting involved in fights
Inability to tolerate boredom
Poor or abusive relationships
Irresponsible work behavior
Disregard for safety
Cruelty to animals

Obviously, it would take a personal inventory to identify more of these, but some are clearly visible.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The one-on-one thread is now officially closed, so my self-imposed moratorium of participating in this thread during the active debate can be lifted. I thought it best to not post here during the debate given the high tension between Ghost and myself.

I am obviously disappointed in how things ended. I have forgiven (dismissed the debt owed) Ghost's concluding vulgar epithets, and justice was handed out appropriately for them.

I hope Ghost will also forgive my own very direct assaults in the one-on-one. I could have adopted a more irenic approach, but I was often given over to my own anger and frustrations and did not hold back in showing the same. Unfortunately, the pre-debate chatbox discussion where some very ugly comments made therein determined my course in the debate. I should have let that whole discussion go by as but mere pre-show theatrics. ;)

I won't seek out Ghost (Dave) for another one another one-on-one debate format. Our approaches to theological discourse are simply too far apart and I don't think God would be fully glorified by either of us in such a venue.

My key objective in the one-on-one was to showcase what I believe are some grave misunderstandings by some, Ghost in particular, related to Christology. I think I met my objective, albeit in part, and hopefully set some on a path of deeper study, prayer, and reflection on the topic. If this happens, then the discussion was successful.

As TH and others have said eloquently, Ghost needs our prayers. I lift them up on his behalf often. He obviously struggles with how he is perceived and this sensitivity often seems to rule his tongue, contra James 3. My prayers are that it be the will of God that Ghost's passion for what he holds dear be moderated by a kinder spirit in his witness. I pray that same prayer for myself daily.

AMR
 
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