ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal

[TulipBee]

Neither. "IF' is a cunjunction which strongly suggests a condition needing to met or preserved. "Perform" is the verb along with "able" as in you are able to perform it.

God gave you and I the ability to perform it from creation. Read God's words to Cain: "IF" you do well, won't you be accepted?" Where in that is Cain "gifted" faith to believe? Having resisted and rejecting God's so-called by you and Nang, God's Grace, He went ahead and murdered his brother!!

Not according to total depravity and won't go into that again here

 

[Cross Reference]

Not according to total depravity and won't go into that again here

I gave you reason why total depravity was NOT ever in humankind but by God who turned such a one over to it; those who *KNEW GOD BUT NO LONGER WANTED TO RETAIN HIM IN THEIR CONSCIENCE. It became the only decree [because the decree was to Himself and God can't lie] He gave to man whereby the recipient of it was eternally damned. So if by decree ALL of humankind was turned over to reprobation, God could never have reversed his decree. Question: Where would that leave ALL of humankind if not as I have already explained it?

*Romans 1:28 KJV

Never think for a moment a decree by defnition equates with anything re sealing one to salvation. One who is decreed to damnation has rendered his will, unchangeable. His conscience has been seered as with a branding iron.

 

[TulipBee]

I gave you reason why total depravity was NOT ever in humankind but by God who turned such a one over to it; those who *KNEW GOD BUT NO LONGER WANTED TO RETAIN HIM IN THEIR CONSCIENCE. It became the only decree [because the decree was to Himself and God can't lie] He gave to man whereby the recipient of it was eternally damned. So if by decree ALL of humankind was turned over to reprobation, God could never have reversed his decree. Question: Where would that leave ALL of humankind if not as I have already explained it?

*Romans 1:28 KJV

Never think for a moment a decree by defnition equates with anything re sealing one to salvation. One who is decreed to damnation has rendered his will, unchangeable. His conscience has been seered as with a branding iron.

Means : To a corrupt and perverse mind, by which it comes to pass that the conscience, having been removed by them, and they having almost no more remorse for sin, run headlong into all types of evil.*

 

[Cross Reference]

Means : To a corrupt and perverse mind, by which it comes to pass that the conscience, having been removed by them, and they having almost no more remorse for sin, run headlong into all types of evil.*

Only by a decree of God does it happen and NOT by the fall of man caused by Adam's transgression. Got it?

Apparently you are not persuaded by Rom 1:28. You don't even address it. So much for your sick doctrine.

 

[TulipBee]

Only by a decree of God does it happen and NOT by the fall of man caused by Adam's transgression. Got it?

Apparently you are not persuaded by Rom 1:28. You don't even address it. So much for your sick doctrine.

Calvinsism is the gospel and you call it sick doctrine. I don't address you cause I know you're a sheep in wolves clothing

 

[Sonnet]

But this all comes down to you (and multitudes, including Calvinists) not understanding created time versus God's uncreated timelessness.

Instead of a passive foundational perspective of Deism and Determinism all predicated upon "before" for God according to election, why not consider it from a very simple perspective that could be life-changing to your ontology, epistemology, economy, and methodology?

What if... (since God is timeless) election is every bit as relative to "after" as it is "before"? What if God elects all Believers AFTER they have rejected Him for their entire lives and have died?

Since there is no "before" OR "after" for God, it's all the same. "After" non-believers reject grace and mercy and love and faith and all else God freely offers to all mankind, and they die without any of that; God THEN doesn't foreknow them or predestine them to be conformed to the image of His Son... because there's no "after" OR "before" for God as timelessness interfacing with created time in its fallen chronological form.

By Jesus Christ being made (poieo) sin (singular anarthrous), man has no excuse for not knowing, and being known by, God in Christ. "After" there was no hearing (the noun) out of which no faith (the noun) came, it's certainly not God's fault when He spoke the Rhema and His Logos was embodied in flesh as Theanthropos, THEN God didn't foreknow those who refused and rejected His Word.

And THAT's why I'm not a Calvinist. Monergism isn't a time-constrained linearity of before and after for depravity, election, atonement, grace, and perseverance.

"Before" is the "after" for a timeless God. He didn't foreknow any who didn't commune with Him during their physical lives in creation. So it's the "before" of "after" that is His divine election.

I certainly agree with you regarding God's timelessness - that all that has and will occur in Creation is in the eternal 'now' for Him. But, as you mentioned elsewhere, God knows all counterfactuals:

1 Samuel 23:7-13
Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah, and he said, “God has delivered him into my hands, for David has imprisoned himself by entering a town with gates and bars.” And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.

When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” David said, “Lord, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”

And the Lord said, “He will.”

Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”

And the Lord said, “They will.”

So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.

The citizens of Keilah surrendering David to Saul never occurred - nonetheless God new it would have been so. We may speculate as to reasons for such omniscience.

 

[Sonnet]

What generates the interest in the Lapsarian views, is of course Ephesians 1:4, where it is revealed souls were chosen to receive adoption in Christ before the creation . . which God purposed "in Himself" Ephesians 1:9 and worked out to the glorious event of the Incarnation in the "dispensation of the fullness of times" in Ephesians 1:10

I agree that God is not subject to time or contingent upon anything created, so I ask if you interpret "the foundation of the world" as being something other than creation "in the beginning." Genesis 1:1

It doesn't say souls were chosen, but rather, that the blessings of holiness and blameless would come to those in Christ.

 

[Sonnet]

To Sonnet and PPS,

I believe there is an important factor that has not been brought forth in all this discussion of Godly Grace, and that is the legal factor.

Adam was created good and in the image of God. He was also made subject to Godly commands (Law) and in order to live, Adam was responsible to obey God's commands. So when Adam broke covenant with God, he suffered legal ramifications. A death sentence.

Thus, Godly grace works as a legal pardon from this sentence of death.

Which takes us into the doctrine of Justification, for death was necessary to satisfy the wages of sin and guilt. Christ died a substitutionary death, in order to serve the justice of God . . fully, thoroughly, and perfectly . . as only the God/Man could do.

So as we discuss Grace and pardon of sins, we must discuss Justification by faith alone, which is the foundation of the Protestant view.

But a pardon does not give license to continue offending...

Regarding the OP - in v.19, how should the first occurrence of 'many' be defined?

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Sonnet]

Which sorrow is the result of a changed and regenerated heart.

Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26

Godly regeneration of the human heart, precedes faith and repentance.

Repentance and faith do not produce grace.
Grace produces repentance and faith.

Ezekiel 36:37-38
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I certainly agree with you regarding God's timelessness - that all that has and will occur in Creation is in the eternal 'now' for Him. But, as you mentioned elsewhere, God knows all counterfactuals:

1 Samuel 23:7-13
Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah, and he said, “God has delivered him into my hands, for David has imprisoned himself by entering a town with gates and bars.” And Saul called up all his forces for battle, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.

When David learned that Saul was plotting against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod.” David said, “Lord, God of Israel, your servant has heard definitely that Saul plans to come to Keilah and destroy the town on account of me. Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me to him? Will Saul come down, as your servant has heard? Lord, God of Israel, tell your servant.”

And the Lord said, “He will.”

Again David asked, “Will the citizens of Keilah surrender me and my men to Saul?”

And the Lord said, “They will.”

So David and his men, about six hundred in number, left Keilah and kept moving from place to place. When Saul was told that David had escaped from Keilah, he did not go there.

The citizens of Keilah surrendering David to Saul never occurred - nonetheless God new it would have been so. We may speculate as to reasons for such omniscience.

How familiar are you with God's incommunicable attributes? Do you affirm or challenge any/all of them?

 

[Sonnet]

How familiar are you with God's incommunicable attributes? Do you affirm or challenge any/all of them?

The term, like many regarding such spiritual concepts, is rather nebulous.

 

[Cross Reference]

Calvinsism is the gospel and you call it sick doctrine. I don't address you cause I know you're a sheep in wolves clothing

WHO TOLD YOU Calvinism is the Gospel?? Was Calvin sent from God??! Calvin had an opinion about the gospel you and a host of others have bought into. Throw it out! Read your Bible and write your own opinion!! When you have one, come back to the table and lets discuss it and not Calvin's opinion about it.

 

[Cross Reference]

It doesn't say souls were chosen, but rather, that the blessings of holiness and blameless would come to those in Christ.

On condition, of course. It doesn't read "would" but "should". As always, the issue of freewill is still in play.

 

[Cross Reference]

Ezekiel 36:37-38
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to Israel’s plea and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep, as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed festivals. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

Amen! Two good posts, Sonnet!

 

[Cross Reference]

The term, like many regarding such spiritual concepts, is rather nebulous.

<"Neb" should have been his handle>

 

[TulipBee]

WHO TOLD YOU Calvinism is the Gospel?? Was Calvin sent from God??! Calvin had an opinion about the gospel you and a host of others have bought into. Throw it out! Read your Bible and write your own opinion!! When you have one, come back to the table and lets discuss it and not Calvin's opinion about it.

God
Calvin didn't create calvinism

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

The term, like many regarding such spiritual concepts, is rather nebulous.

Nebulous? It sounds more like you're unaware of them. They're anything but nebulous, even if someone doesn't affirm some/all of them.

Which ones do you consider nebulous? Or do you consider it nebulous that God has attributes that are His alone?

 

[Cross Reference]

God
Calvin didn't create calvinism

What god? Your god, you mean. If it had been God, He would have confirmed it all in an unmistakeable fashion. He hasn't ever done that, though Calvin may have thought so by being his own god on many occasions. You need to wise up.

 

[Sonnet]

Nebulous? It sounds more like you're unaware of them. They're anything but nebulous, even if someone doesn't affirm some/all of them.

Which ones do you consider nebulous? Or do you consider it nebulous that God has attributes that are His alone?

I wasn't aware of the term incommunicable attributes, no.

 

[TulipBee]

What god? Your god, you mean. If it had been God, He would have confirmed it all in an unmistakeable fashion. He hasn't ever done that, though Calvin may have thought so by being his own god on many occasions. You need to wise up.

Both calvinism and the gospel teaches theres only one God.
This is a no Brainer if you'll use it