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"pretty much" doesn't carry the day. 2/3 of the world is already in tribulation. Tell them your attitude.
ECT Grace is unconditional but not universal
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"pretty much" doesn't carry the day. 2/3 of the world is already in tribulation. Tell them your attitude.
Sonnet
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But the truth, of course, is that you believe Christ died for some sinners. That would be your most accurate assessment wouldn't it? Why spend all this time defending limited atonement to then blunt your theology in this way?
The result of unjustifiable extrapolation conflicting with Gospel truth?
You accuse me of lying, but you are disingenuously preaching Romans 5:8 - they think you mean all men, but you don't! Or does the sharing of the Gospel come with a (Gospel destroying) exposition on limited atonement?
PneumaPsucheSoma
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...which is why I engaged you in the midst of all the trolls. But you're not divesting yourself of bias to see the abstraction to which I'm actually referring.
Jesus died for the sins OF the whole world. He didn't die for the whole world. It's about WHAT He died for, not WHO He died for. And that "what" is a noun that is a void as a "somethinglessness".
And Calvinists are fighting over the same erroneous crumbs and can't respond properly with an apologetic that makes any sense.
Sonnet
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I'm still not clear as to how this resolves the dilemma. If it's still ALL God in the gifting of faith, without any part played by us, then we are back to discrimination and inaccessibility. Yes, we are depraved, but it just does not sit right in one's spirit.
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True? Whose, Jesus or Paul's? "pretty much" illustrates your presumption. You have no idea.
Nang
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You admit mankind being depraved, but you do not go so far as to admit that this depravity corrupts and kills. Unregenerated men walk this earth as spiritually dead men. They live their entire lives facing an imposed death sentence.
Christ lifted Himself up on the cross as a substitutional offering to pay that death sentence for all those God chooses to justify and pardon.
God justly determines to whom He will show mercy and grace. It is His call, not ours. Romans 9:14-16
And it takes His gift of faith for us to trust in His goodness and wisdom, in so doing.
"Whatever God does is just.”
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In other words, one must be saved in order to be saved. Now that is heresy! . . .and stupid. We have heard it all before. You build you doctrine on one verse of scripture. That isn't very smart. . but then.
Again, based upon that nonsense, and you should pray I am correct, where do you actually fit in? You can't even hope because your assurances are no assurances at all and can't ever be. You confess that you are wilfully ignorant of the way the Salvation by Jesus Christ is activated with in one.
Sonnet
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It corrupts and kills; the older I get the more I see the wickedness in even our best intentions. Even so, that does not, cannot, preclude us from faith - not of ourselves, but in response to the drawing that follows from Christ's lifting up.
No! That put's some folk beyond hope of salvation. John 3:14-16.
That scripture is a reference to God choosing how salvation would come - a rebuke to those Israelites who thought they could attain righteousness through the strict observance of the law. 'No,' Paul is saying, 'God decided that it would be through Christ - through FAITH in Christ.'
"On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.'”
Paul is saying here that one does not get a leg up into heaven because one is born an Israelite or a descendent of Abraham. Again, no - it would be through becoming heirs in Christ. The loving and hating of Jacob and Esau is not unto salvation/reprobation, but unto whom was chosen for the line of Christ. The Hebrew idiom is 'like less'.
Nang
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No, this is not my message.
My message is, God must resurrect souls from death, in order for them to live in a spiritual capacity (repentance & faith).
" . . Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3b
" . . You must be born again. . So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:7b-8b
Sonnet
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PneumaPsucheSoma
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But eido (perceptive sight) and oida (intuitive knowledge) are grammatical forms of the same Greek word.
The emphasis is incorrectly placed on sin (in whatever grammatical form). It's about resurrection from spiritual death from within.
Everyone is approaching this from subtly incorrect modern perspectives based upon erroneous default English concepts.
The power (exousia) God has given us to become the sons of God is ex- (out of/from) His own essence of being and wealth of existence (-ousia).
Nang
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Regeneration and the gifting of faith from God, is part of the "draw." Point being (unless you want to adopt the Pelagian heresy) dead men have no faith or love for God abiding within. Their hearts are stone cold and hard. Regeneration that changes and quickens the heart with faith to love God anew, is necessary. And Jesus quickens whom He wills. John 5:21
Yes it does. And those condemned, unbelieving folk do not want salvation. Read John 3:18-20
What I say. Read John 3:21; Isaiah 26:12; I Chronicles 17:19
Romans 9:14-18 does not use the language you are inserting to sell your wrong interpretation.
I have read similar commentaries on Romans 9 that you are parroting, with the intent to avoid the doctrine of Unconditional Election, but such fail. Jacob and Esau, without a doubt contrast the elect to the reprobate, as determined by God alone:
" . . That the purpose of God according to election might stand; not of works but of Him who calls." Romans 9:11b
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
I know.
How else would man have faith, if not from His Creator? Could he somehow have his own apart from God?
Faith is the thing believed. How would man have that come out of the thing heard if there was no thing thought and spoken about by God? Was it, then, man's own speaking and hearing, too?
Who spoke? God or man? If God, then the Rhema is His; and the thing heard is that Rhema; and the thing believed is that Rhema.
So... Where and how did faith come? Even the come is part of the "out of/from" as the word ek- (like EXit or EXodus, etc.).
The original image in which man is created has latent within it the entire functionality that was dysfunctionalized by spiritual death and sin as "evil" and its physical senses knowledge.
We are resurrected back to that state of existence by God. We can't and don't do that. It's administered on our behalf, available for the remission of ALL sin/s.
It's the ignorance of Hamartiology ("Sin"-ology) and Ponerology ("Evil"-ology) that is the culprit, along with Greek noun forms.
No. We're back to the timeless God interfacing with all forms of time with no linearity for endless arguments with Calvinists about a false binary.
It does when one is renewed in the spirit of the mind.
Sonnet
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How is this a resolution of this issue?
PneumaPsucheSoma
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Because you're in the vortex of a time-based false argument superimposed upon the timeless God.
PneumaPsucheSoma
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I wasn't referring to horao (or blepo).
Sonnet
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Good Lord - you actually believe this? It's grieving.
Who is the seed here?
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
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