God's Criminal Justice System...

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Behira
I don't remember the "careless handling of animals"; but I know that often people who beat their animals also beat spouses and children.
People who neglect animals; may also neglect family members.

I don't recall that either, but I do recall:

If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible.

If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death.

Would it be too far fetched to apply that principle to dogs today?

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Some excellentposts! Thank you :thumb:

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Poly
Interesting thought. And if this law were in effect, what parent, after putting up with this kind of behavior one time, wouldn't make sure there would never be a second time by administering appropriate punishment? This would help ensure that worrying about him being put to death over rebellion wouldn't even be an issue. Maybe this is why God stresses not to spare the rod. If correct punishment is carried out in the household then there is no concern over a child being put to death over rebellion.

Exactly. I think the idea is to never let it get to the point where this kind of punishment is necessary. Interesting that there's no example in scripture of this punishment being carried out...

granite

 

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Behira
If your justice system has little corruption; then there should be no repeat rapists, murders, or pedophiles. They'd be dead and have no more evil influence on society.

Which is a Good Thing™: less competition for the atheists and secular humanists...
:chuckle:

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by way 2 go
Are you mocking God?

No, but are you? We live under a superior Covenant not the Old Covenant, were you aware of this?

Are you saying God was unjust to have called for the death penalty for these things?

God was just in calling for the death penalty in the Old Covenant, as He is just to not mandate the government to perform the death penalty under the New Covenant.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Behira
If your justice system has little corruption; then there should be no repeat rapists, murders, or pedophiles. They'd be dead and have no more evil influence on society.

But what does the Bible say? The Bible tell us that man is corrupt and men make up governments, so all governments are corrupt. Again, the death penalty would not serve as a deterance since man is totally depraved. Romans 3:10 and all.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by granite1010
Exactly. I think the idea is to never let it get to the point where this kind of punishment is necessary. Interesting that there's no example in scripture of this punishment being carried out...

granite

Do you know why that is? Because they were not just to carry it out in the Old Covenant.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Freak
Do you know why that is? Because they were not just to carry it out in the Old Covenant.

How was it not just if the death penalty for this offense was mandated?

granite

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by granite1010
How was it not just if the death penalty for this offense was mandated?

granite

Many times in the Old Covenant, people broke the laws that demanded the death penalty and the death penalty was not never introduced. This is the failure of the death penalty in the Old Covenant (that is why God introduced a better Covenant) it wasn't, generally speaking, used justly.

 

[2MuchCoffeeMan]

I've noticed that most christians that disagree with the criminal justice system we're discussing here tend to do so on the insistence that, as christians, we aren't under the Israel's convenant with God. In other words, we aren't under the (Mosaic) law. We are "dead to the law", etc.
I think the point needs to be clarified that, just as being "dead to the law" doesn't imply that we aren't expected to obey the laws of the state (i.e. this nation), so we also shouldn't confuse adopting a bible-based justice system with placing ourselves under the law (in the spiritual sense).

That is, there's a big difference between a legal system and a spiritual requirement to obey a set of laws to be accounted as righteous. Christians have no laws by which our righteousness is judged. We obey the earthly law, and seek a better system of earthly law, "merely" because it's a good and right thing to do.

Not to mention (I agree with Enyart on this) that such a system, if it has the effect on society that it seems it would, would make it far, far easier for people to both seek and accept Christ. Not mention saving a lot of people a great deal of grief.

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by 2MuchCoffeeMan
I've noticed that most christians that disagree with the criminal justice system we're discussing here tend to do so on the insistence that, as christians, we aren't under the Israel's convenant with God. In other words, we aren't under the (Mosaic) law. We are "dead to the law", etc.
I think the point needs to be clarified that, just as being "dead to the law" doesn't imply that we aren't expected to obey the laws of the state (i.e. this nation), so we also shouldn't confuse adopting a bible-based justice system with placing ourselves under the law (in the spiritual sense).

That is, there's a big difference between a legal system and a spiritual requirement to obey a set of laws to be accounted as righteous. Christians have no laws by which our righteousness is judged. We obey the earthly law, and seek a better system of earthly law, "merely" because it's a good and right thing to do.

Not to mention (I agree with Enyart on this) that such a system, if it has the effect on society that it seems it would, would make it far, far easier for people to both seek and accept Christ. Not mention saving a lot of people a great deal of grief.

I would have to say for the most part I agree with your statement.

 

[way 2 go]

God was just in calling for the death penalty in the Old Covenant , as He is just to not mandate the government to perform the death penalty under the New Covenant.

They had justice using the death penalty back then we would have justice using the death penalty now
And it definitely would stop repeat offenders

Your version
Having mercy on the criminal allows some of them to do it again
Sends them to criminal school (prison)
Cost billions
What about the victims? what about society?

God’s version
Deters people from becoming murders
If they do murder. They will not do it again
Less victims .society is protected. No need for surveillance cameras everywhere.
Less money
& if they so wish they can repent
hmmmm also redemptive justice .kinda like the thief on the cross

 

[Turbo]

Re: Re: God's Criminal Justice System...

Re: Re: God's Criminal Justice System...

Originally posted by 2MuchCoffeeMan
It's the death penalty crimes, actually. Can't say I have the slightest problems with any restitution or corporeal punishment crimes at all.


Originally posted by Freak
Yep. I'm with you.

In the past you have spoken out against corporal punishment. Have you had a change of heart, or did you misread 2muchcoffeeman's post?

The Old Covenant called for the death penalty in these cases too:

-cursing parents
-for abusing one's parents
-for careless handling of an animal
-for stubbornness and rebellion
-for blasphemy
-for working on Saturday
-for ignoring the decision of a priest or judge
-for perjury
-A male who was not circumcised
-Manufacturing anointing oil
-Consuming blood
-Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating
-Persons teaching another religion
-Gluttony and excessive drinking

Those who endorse the death penaty would like for the government to put to death these people too.

I know of no one who wants symbolic laws like working on Saturday to be enforced today. You bear false witness against us.

Some of these laws you misrepresent. For instance, perjury is only a capital crime in capital cases. (see underlined portion of Deut 19 below.)

The problem is, first of all, nobody would live since we are all guilty of at least one of these at one time or another, of these sins & crimes.

Did everyone in Israel have to be put to death back when these laws were enforced?

They are in effect in Islamic nations.

Then why hasn't everyone in those countries been put to death?

It would not serve as a deterance since man is totally depraved. Romans 3:10 and all.

You don't think fear of punishment can deter crime? Would scripture stating that it can deter crime change your mind?

One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established. If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing, then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Deuteronomy 19:15-21

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Romans 13:1-4

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by granite1010
Exactly. I think the idea is to never let it get to the point where this kind of punishment is necessary. Interesting that there's no example in scripture of this punishment being carried out...

Originally posted by Freak
Do you know why that is? Because they were not just to carry it out in the Old Covenant.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Do you mean...

The law was unjust, and because they recognized this they didn't enforce it.

...or...

The law was just, but the people were not just. They did not enforce the law, but they should have.

 

[Freak]

Re: Re: Re: God's Criminal Justice System...

Re: Re: Re: God's Criminal Justice System...

Originally posted by Turbo
In the past you have spoken out against corporal punishment. Have you had a change of heart, or did you misread 2muchcoffeeman's post?

I have always supported corporal punishment. Stop bearing false witness.

I know of no one who wants symbolic laws like working on Saturday to be enforced today.

Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating deserves the death penalty according to the less then superior covenant. Is this law symbolic to you too?

Did everyone in Israel have to be put to death back when these laws were enforced?

This is my point. Many broke God's Law (the ones that called for the death penalty) but were not punished by death. Besides, God's Word tells us that no one is righteous no, not even one.

"Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things (though the father has done none of them):

"He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor's wife.
He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head."

Who under the Old Covenant, Turbo, escaped from doing a detesable thing? Everyone is guilty so everyone desrves death. But, oh, the mercy & grace of God.

Then why hasn't everyone in those countries been put to death?

Because the governments are unjust.

You don't think fear of punishment can deter crime?

I believe the Gospel is a much more powerful tool to deter crime, Romans 1:16. You & I differ on this. I believe the Gospel is more powerful where you believe the death penalty is.

Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11

It cannot be executed speedily due to the sinfulness of man that make up our governments. Were you aware of this?

 

[Turbo]

Welcome, 2MCM! :wave:

 

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by Turbo
Welcome, 2MCM! :wave:

Man that pic is awesome!!!!!!:thumb:

I forget, isn't that one of the Tic superheroes?

 

[way 2 go]

Originally posted by Behira
If your justice system has little corruption; then there should be no repeat rapists, murders, or pedophiles. They'd be dead and have no more evil influence on society.

Originally posted by Freak
But what does the Bible say? The Bible tell us that man is corrupt and men make up governments, so all governments are corrupt. Again, the death penalty would not serve as a deterance since man is totally depraved. Romans 3:10 and all.

before the flood no death penalty
Genesis 6
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.


after the flood
Genesis 9
6"Whoever sheds man's blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.

The no death penalty was tried from the beginning and did not work
hence the flood & the death penalty given right after the flood

Has God changed his mind on how he is going to deal with the unsaved \ unregenerate after they die?

 

[way 2 go]

Originally posted by granite1010
Exactly. I think the idea is to never let it get to the point where this kind of punishment is necessary. Interesting that there's no example in scripture of this punishment being carried out...

Originally posted by Freak
Do you know why that is? Because they were not just to carry it out in the Old Covenant

And yet…

Leviticus 24
The Penalty for Blasphemy
10 Now the son of an Israelite woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel; and this Israelite woman's son and a man of Israel fought each other in the camp. 11And the Israelite woman's son blasphemed the name of the LORD and cursed; and so they brought him to Moses. (His mother's name was Shelomith the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.) 12Then they put him in custody, that the mind of the LORD might be shown to them.
13And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 14"Take outside the camp him who has cursed; then let all who heard him lay their hands on his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15"Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: "Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the LORD, he shall be put to death.
17"Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.



Mark 7
8For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men --the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
9He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother'; and, "He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11But you say, "If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban"--' (that is, a gift to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."


Apparently people were not being executed because of the laying aside the commandments of God for the traditions of men
:think: Isn’t that what your advocating Freak?

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by way 2 go
Isn’t that what your advocating Freak?

I asked:

"Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things (though the father has done none of them):

"He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor's wife.
He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
He lends at usury and takes excessive interest.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head."

Who under the Old Covenant, escaped from doing a detesable thing? Everyone is guilty so everyone deserves death. Right? But, oh, the mercy & grace of God.