ECT God Made Mankind Upright and That Contradicts the Theory of Original Sin

[Jerry Shugart]

Will people sin in the New Heavens and New Earth?

I believe that the Scriptures reveal that a person sins when he goes from being God-centered to being self-centered. And in the eternal state all people will be God-centered.

 

[nikolai_42]

I believe that the Scriptures reveal that a person sins when he goes from being God-centered to being self-centered. And in the eternal state all people will be God-centered.

Will all people choose to be "God-centered"? You haven't said why people will be eternally "God-centred" in the afterlife when they weren't necessarily so in this life.

 

[beloved57]

jerry

You overlook the fact that all of mankind was made upright:

Um, why you say that ? Didnt you read and pay attention to what I posted in post 24?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Will all people choose to be "God-centered"? You haven't said why people will be eternally "God-centred" in the afterlife when they weren't necessarily so in this life.

So what are you saying?

That even when Christians put on new bodies and are in heaven they will have no free will?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Um, why you say that ? Didnt you read and pay attention to what I posted in post 24?

You deny that the LORD made mankind upright even though the Scriptures say that He did.

 

[beloved57]

You deny that the LORD made mankind upright even though the Scriptures say that He did.

False accusation. Since thats how you want to debate or discuss, I will pass

 

[Jerry Shugart]

False accusation. Since thats how you want to debate or discuss, I will pass

You come on this thread and just ignore the subject of this thread--that the LORD makes mankind upright.

All you do is just ignore that fact and go about trying to prove that He doesn't make mankind upright.

 

[nikolai_42]

So what are you saying?

That even when Christians put on new bodies and are in heaven they will have no free will?

I'm not saying anything. I'm trying to understand what is going on in your understanding of man's sinfulness. There is - according to the way I read what you say - a change in whether or not there will be sin once someone is in the New Heavens and New Earth. Whence that change? I'm just wanting to know if you believe that or if you believe that there will be sin in the New Heavens and New Earth. If there was no change in man's free will, can he not freely choose sin in the New Heavens and New Earth?

 

[john w]

Why do you still stalk people who do not agree with you, sonny boy?

That would be you, baldie. People stalk me, because of my fame, clout, on TOL, in contrast to you.

Why will you not believe Him?

Jerry's cute little "Why don't you believe Paul, .....?"-his MO on TOL-sophistry, kid stuff.


You missed it. You taught me trap/humanisim type questions, baldie. You learned that from the Pharisees, who tried it on the Saviour. It did not work with Him-it does not work with me.

The scripture says that all are born with a sin nature.


Why will not you believe God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, Paul, in Genesis-Revelation?

See how that works, Pate, Jr.?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The scripture says that all are born with a sin nature.

The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people are born with a sin nature. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all the wickedness upon the face of the earth since the beginning of time.

And you actually believe that theory!

Come on, sonny boy. I taught you better than that.

 

[john w]

sonny boy, I am still waiting you to actually address the verses which I did quote. In order to examine the results of personal sins in regard to death let us look first at the following verse :

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" (Eph.2:1).​

Joseph Benson wrote that "they are under condemnation, on account of their past depravity and various transgressions, to the second death, or to future wrath and punishment, like criminals under sentence of death for their crimes" [emphasis added] (Joseph Benson, Benson Commentary on the Old and New Testaments, Commentary at Ephesians 2:1).

In The Pulpit Commentary we read that "the death ascribed to the Ephesians in their natural state is evidently spiritual death, and "trespasses and sins," being in the dative seems to indicate the cause of death - 'dead through your trespasses and your sins' (R.V.)" (The Pulpit Commentary)

Paul also tells the believers at Colosse the following:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

In Vincent's Word Studies we read the following: "In your sins...the dative is instrumental, through or by" (Marvin R. Vincent, Vincent's Word Studies)

At Colossians 2:13 we read that Paul tells these people that they were dead previously but now have been made "alive with Christ." This can only be speaking of them receiving spiritual life so their death was a spiritual death. So these people died spiritually as a result of their own sin. That means that they were alive spiritually before they sinned because no one can die spiritually unless he is first alive spiritually. And the only possible way that these people were alive spiritually before they sinned is because they emerged from the womb spiritually alive.

That means that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead and that completely destroys the theory of Original Sin which teaches that all people emerge from the womb spiritually dead. Thomas R. Schreiner is clearly in error when he says that "all people sin individually because they enter the world spiritually dead on the basis of their union with Adam" (Thomas R. Schreiner, Adam, the Fall, and Original Sin", 273-74).

The theory of Original Sin is very harmful to the cause of Christianity because it makes the LORD God the author of sin. When unbelievers hear Christians teach that little babies are guilty of Adam's sin they have a really good reason to reject Christianity.

Already did, baldie, on another thread, but, as is your MO, as so many on TOL have pointed out, you punted the dozens of verses refuting your made up theory.

Address those first, baldie.


Is that why you were banned from a few other forums, like christianforums.com, i.e., lying, hypocrisy, misquoting others, accusing others of not addressing the scriptures, hypocrisy, sophistry?


Did you teach your children to sin? Who did?

 

[john w]

The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people are born with a sin nature. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all the wickedness upon the face of the earth since the beginning of time.

No, Jer., that is your satanic humanism-your MO on TOL.Already addressed:

1.Adam was born upright-free will....he chose to disobey-we would have done the same thing-the dispensational approach.....Man is tried in dispensations, fails....The big picture. But that meat you cannot bear, kid. Stick with the milk.


Jer: You're not fair, God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. An atheist to Jer. Pate, Jr.:The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people, if they do not choose God, they will be consigned to an eternal torment. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell. Your "god" is a sadist.Why did your "god" make people, if he knew man would fall, endure wickedness on earth, and most go to hell-He is responsible for this!!!!!!!!!!!

Jer: Uh, urr,....

Jer: The humanist.

And you actually believe that theory!

You actually believe this "God is unfair, a sadist, responsible for man's fall, we have to teach children to sin....." theory?

Come on, sonny boy. I taught you better than that.

Come on, baldie...Tell us who taught your children to sin. Go ahead.


You taught me? Good one. I had to teach you that both Adam and Eve(pre-fall) had "flesh and bones," as the Saviour does now. You've not even read Genesis, have you, Pate, Jr.? ,

 

[jamie]

For those who are sinners and believe then eternal life is a free gift. But the following is what I was referring to earlier. Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).

If one will inherit eternal life, keep the commandments, but we should understand that keeping the law does not save us.

We are saved by grace through faith. Sin is counter to faith.

If a person sins it is not because of Godly faith.

Jesus didn't sin and we are expected to become like him.

That's only reasonable.

 

[john w]

Jer Pate, Jr. Tell us the reason for the Lord Jesus Christ being born of the Holy Spirit, instead of having the sperm of a man impregnating Mary. Unpack it for us. And tell us the difference between Him having no "original sin," from the womb, and a baby from the womb, having no "original sin."

And, again, as I've asked you numerous times, tell us who taught your children to sin, and why you assert that an apple tree becomes an apple tree, only after it produces apples.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If one will inherit eternal life, keep the commandments, but we should understand that keeping the law does not save us.

In order to obtain eternal life by keeping God's commandments a person has to keep it perfectly. So no one obtains it that way.

However, a person has the ability to keep it perfectly but not the will.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell.

According to the theory of Original Sin all people emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

And then, according to the theory, He will condemn people for doing the very thing He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

The God I worship would never do that because in Him there is no darkness at all (1 Jn.1:5).

 

[nikolai_42]

According to the theory of Original Sin all people emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

And then, according to the theory, He will condemn people for doing the very thing He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

The God I worship would never do that because in Him there is no darkness at all (1 Jn.1:5).

I'm still hoping you can answer my last post, but another thought occurs - do you have to teach a child to lust, covet, hate etc... or can they come up with that all by themselves? And if the answer is that they are able to come up with that all by themselves (and Paul even teaches that the Law brings sin - not our parents; see Romans 7:8-14, primarily), then how does bad fruit come from a good tree? Sin is either resident or "the devil made me do it". Did God make man's deceitful heart? The question isn't "How did you make your heart so deceitful?" but rather "Who can know it?"

 

[john w]

According to the theory of Original Sin all people emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

And then, according to the theory, He will condemn people for doing the very thing He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

The God I worship would never do that because in Him there is no darkness at all (1 Jn.1:5).

No, you argued that the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell.



No, Jer., that is your satanic humanism-your MO on TOL.Already addressed:

1.Adam was born upright-free will....he chose to disobey-we would have done the same thing-the dispensational approach.....Man is tried in dispensations, fails....The big picture. But that meat you cannot bear, kid. Stick with the milk.


Jer: You're not fair, God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. An atheist to Jer. Pate, Jr.:The LORD makes all people and according to your theory all people, if they do not choose God, they will be consigned to an eternal torment. Therefore, the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell. Your "god" is a sadist.Why did your "god" make people, if he knew man would fall, endure wickedness on earth, and most go to hell-He is responsible for this!!!!!!!!!!!

Jer: Uh, urr,....

Jer: The humanist.


You actually believe this "God is unfair, a sadist, responsible for man's fall, we have to teach children to sin....." theory?

An atheist to Jer Pate, Jr.:If there is a God, I would never worship a God that does what your God-sends people to an eternity in hell, because my God would not have darkness at all .

Jer: Well, uh, urr...

See how that works, humanist?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, you argued that the LORD must be responsible for all this wickedness, of sending people to hell.

I argued that if the theory of Original Sin is true then God makes people with a sin nature and they emerge from the womb "utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" then the LORD is responsible for the evil that they do.

 

[john w]

I'm still hoping you can answer my last post, but another thought occurs - do you have to teach a child to lust, covet, hate etc... or can they come up with that all by themselves? And if the answer is that they are able to come up with that all by themselves (and Paul even teaches that the Law brings sin - not our parents; see Romans 7:8-14, primarily), then how does bad fruit come from a good tree? Sin is either resident or "the devil made me do it". Did God make man's deceitful heart? The question isn't "How did you make your heart so deceitful?" but rather "Who can know it?"

I asked him that over 10 times, and who taught his children how to misbehave, i.e., selfishness, self centeredness, disobedience, greed,......=sin. It comes naturally, to a baby. What isn't natural, is what needs to be taught: obedience, charity, kindness, selflessness..... Hence, ...

Proverbs 22:6 KJV Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.