God is ONE, and therefore not three, and not three in one, but ONE!

[JudgeRightly]

I see that reading comprehension is not your strong point.

So no actual response to what I said then?

 

[ok doser]

oh good

another anti-trin thread

 

[JudgeRightly]

oh good

another anti-trin thread

No, just an older one that's recently been dug up.

 

[ok doser]

i see

thought it looked familiar


but then, they all look familiar

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Holy Spirit is a manifestation of Yahwah Himself and not a third person.

So then is the Father and Son just a manifestation of God?

God is Holy and He is a Spirit.

No argument there, at least, none worth getting into in this discussion. Still doesn't address the Holy Spirit being a person though.

There are more scriptures that go with these. Selah

Spoiler

Leviticus 24:16
anyone who blasphemes the name of Yahwah must be put to death.

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Joshua 24:19
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve Yahwah. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.

1 Samuel 6:20
and the men of Beth Shemesh asked, "Who can stand in the presence of Yahwah, this holy God? To whom will the ark go up from here?"

Isaiah 5:16
But Yahwah Almighty will be exalted by his justice, and the holy God will show himself holy by his righteousness.

Psalm 99:3
Let them praise your great and awesome name— he is holy.

Psalm 99:5
Exalt Yahwah our God and worship at his footstool; he is holy.

Psalm 99:9
Exalt Yahwah our God and worship at his holy mountain, for Yahwah our God is holy.

Isaiah 57:15
For this is what the high and lofty One says— he who lives forever, whose name is holy:

Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

1 Thessalonians 4:8
Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Genesis 6:3
Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal ; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

Isaiah 30:1
“Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the LORD, “to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;

Isaiah 42:1
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isaiah 44:3
For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour out my Spirit on your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.

Isaiah 59:21
“As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the LORD.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Ezekiel 37:14
I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’”

Ezekiel 39:29
I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

Joel 2:28
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Joel 2:29
Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

Haggai 2:5
‘This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.’

Zechariah 4:6
So he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.

Zechariah 6:8
Then he called to me, “Look, those going toward the north country have given my Spirit rest in the land of the north.”

Numbers 11:29
But Moses replied, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”

Job 34:14
If it were his intention and he withdrew his Spirit and breath,

Isaiah 34:16
Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together.

Isaiah 48:16
“Come near me and listen to this: “From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there.” And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit.

Zechariah 7:12
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

Romans 8:11
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

1 Corinthians 2:10
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

2 Corinthians 1:22
set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Galatians 3:5
So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Ephesians 2:22
And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Ephesians 3:16
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—

1 John 4:13
This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So, you are excluding the Ruach Elohim (Holy Spirit) from the Godhead. So, you have "Father" and "Son" as divine... a duotarian doctrine.

That is what the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE declared.
The Holy Spirit was not included until the First Council of Constantinople in 381 CE.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Angels are called "elohim." God is "Elohim"

English capitalization rules for proper nouns do not apply to Hebrew.

 

[JudgeRightly]

English capitalization rules for proper nouns do not apply to Hebrew.

And yet, there's enough of a difference that the translators were able to translate it differently depending on the context.

 

[genuineoriginal]

And yet, there's enough of a difference that the translators were able to translate it differently depending on the context.

That is not sufficient to base a doctrine upon.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is not sufficient to base a doctrine upon.

Which is why I don't rely on just that fact.

GO, first of all, since I don't know your position on this matter, would you mind telling me, so we can establish a baseline for our discussion?

Is the Father God?
Is the Son God?

Is Jesus the Father? (As GT and others believe)

Is the Holy Spirit "just another name" for God?

Is God unitarian (ie, one Being, one Person), duotarian (ie, one Being, two Persons), or triune (ie, one Being, three Persons)? (I would ask if you're monotheistic or duotheistic or tritheistic, but I'm pretty sure you're just a monotheist like I am.)

 

[genuineoriginal]

Which is why I don't rely on just that fact.

GO, first of all, since I don't know your position on this matter, would you mind telling me, so we can establish a baseline for our discussion?

Is the Father God?
Is the Son God?

Is Jesus the Father? (As GT and others believe)

Is the Holy Spirit "just another name" for God?

Is God unitarian (ie, one Being, one Person), duotarian (ie, one Being, two Persons), or triune (ie, one Being, three Persons)? (I would ask if you're monotheistic or duotheistic or tritheistic, but I'm pretty sure you're just a monotheist like I am.)

This is the basis of my belief system:

Acts 24:14-16 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.​

There were no Trinitarians in existence when Paul said this.

 

[ttruscott]

If God is "one" in a trinity, then He has a single will.

42) Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
That proves that Christ has a separate will from the Fathers.

No sir, only in His human incarnation is His will experienced as separate (though in truth it was not separated from the Trinity) so He could realize what it means to be human and we could relate to Him.

He thought He was dying in the garden (not a bad assumption given His state) and since, as a man, He couldn't tell if the Father and the Holy Spirit had changed the game plan so HE would die in the garden, He said as He did. None of this is meaningful in reference to His deity, but only to His perception of being incarnated as a man.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This is the basis of my belief system:

Acts 24:14-16 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. 16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.​

There were no Trinitarians in existence when Paul said this.

Which.... doesn't answer my questions at all...

GO, could you answer my questions?

 

[chair]

Your interpretation that `echad can only mean the numeral 1 is wrong as proven by the verse [FONT=&]Genesis 2:[/FONT][FONT=&]24 [/FONT][FONT=&]For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become [/FONT][FONT=&]one / `echad flesh. [/FONT][FONT=&]When a man and wife join, to they actually become 1, the numeral 1, flesh? Not at all so this must be referring to their unity which is also the unity of the Divine Trinity, as [/FONT]Deut 6:4[FONT=&] tells us. [/FONT]

This is wrong- though commonly found on many Christian sites. Echad is simply one. Think about the verse that you quoted. Does it make sense in English? Let's see:

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh"​

Yes, it makes sense in English. I think you'll agree. Does that mean the English word "one" means "unity", rather than the numeral 1? I think not. So why do you think it works that way in Hebrew?

 

[CherubRam]

This is wrong- though commonly found on many Christian sites. Echad is simply one. Think about the verse that you quoted. Does it make sense in English? Let's see:

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh"​

Yes, it makes sense in English. I think you'll agree. Does that mean the English word "one" means "unity", rather than the numeral 1? I think not. So why do you think it works that way in Hebrew?

[FONT=&quot]One in unity with the Father[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 17:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 17:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[chair]

[FONT="]One in unity with the Father[/FONT][/B]

[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]John 17:11[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, [B]so that they may be one as [B]we[/B] [B]are[/B] [B]one[/B].[/B][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[URL="https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+17:22&version=NIV"][FONT="]John 17:22[/FONT][/COLOR][/URL][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]I have given them the glory that you gave me, [B]that they may be one as[/B] [B]we[/B] [B]are[/B] [B]one[/B]—[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]

You can believe in the Trinity as much as you like, and quote NT to your hearts desire. Just don't try to "prove" the Trinity by getting basic Hebrew wrong.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You can believe in the Trinity as much as you like, and quote NT to your hearts desire. Just don't try to "prove" the Trinity by getting basic Hebrew wrong.

CR is anti-Trinity, just fyi...

 

[ttruscott]

This is wrong- though commonly found on many Christian sites. Echad is simply one. Think about the verse that you quoted. Does it make sense in English? Let's see:

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh"​

Yes, it makes sense in English. I think you'll agree. Does that mean the English word "one" means "unity", rather than the numeral 1? I think not. So why do you think it works that way in Hebrew?

Sure it can mean 1, but how can you claim that one flesh refers to the numeral 1 ?! Have sex with your wife one time and see if two bodies ever disappear and become one body! Sheesh...

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "echad":259 'echad ekh-awd' a numeral from 258; properly, united, i.e. one;

​

 

[drbrumley]

Bs"d

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"





"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version





"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation





"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible



So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

Wow, what amazing insight.....I agree there is one God...so what are you arguing against again?