ECT glorydaz says that Romans is Written to Unbelievers

[Arsenios]

Well then if this IS the case, then why do you suppose the New American Bible translates it the same way as the NIV?
"teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

The result is that we observe certain Church Holy Days, among them Pentecost, Christmas, Pascha, and so forth, and by this term observe, we do not mean perceive, but the day is taken off from work and we have a special service for that event in the Church calendar... Paul mentions making it to a Church for Pentecost... Those are Holy Days... And these days we call them holidays, because we look forward to not working that day... While forgetting its basis...

And we also have the noun "Observances"... And all of these entail the setting aside of time for the doing of whatever the observance entails... So that the term 'observe' here has been built up in its meaning by Church usage in the ekklesiastical calendar...

But when one does a word study, the term translated by the gloss observance turns out to mean very specific and detailed obedience to the commandments of Christ which He had given to the Apostles... eg it involves a specific praxis of doing things exactly as prescribed... And that prescription is not specified in the Bible, but is delegated to the Apostles for its discipling in the Body of Christ.

So that when one examines the Christian Churches of the first thousand years, one finds a uniformity of praxis that defies another accounting than the one given here... Same calendar, for instance, and same daily cycle of prayers and services, same Communion Services, and on and on... The early Church was One... As the Body of Christ is one... And yes, there were schisms... But not many, and only on a single issue, and even here, some 1500 years later, the Services of the Oriental and the Eastern Orthodox are vvirtually identical... Differences are all very local... But they all started out with the same commandments... Snf they all have the same services and practices and structures of worship...

So that 'observe' is a fair gloss, but needs opening to get the meaning...

Arsenios

 

[Right Divider]

Back to the OP,
Romans was written especially for Jews returning to Rome after Claudius ban (Acts 18), because the non-Jewish Christians were now the leaders and the mingling was not as easy as at first.

Rom 11:13-14 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
​

Sounds like Paul is writing to Gentiles to me. Paul calls his kinsmen in the flesh "them".

 

[Danoh]

Back to the OP,
Romans was written especially for Jews returning to Rome after Claudius ban (Acts 18), because the non-Jewish Christians were now the leaders and the mingling was not as easy as at first.

Nope. Romans was written to establish members of the Body at Rome in the finer details of the faith.

It does deal with issues similar to what you have raised, but that is not its main, overall thrust.

 

[tetelestai]

Rom 11:13-14 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
​

Sounds like Paul is writing to Gentiles to me. Paul calls his kinsmen in the flesh "them".

Paul is speaking to Gentiles. However, these Gentiles were descendants of Abraham according to the flesh

(Rom 4:1) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter?

There's only one answer for who the Romans were.

It's not "Jews" and it's not pagan Gentiles.

HINT: "not my people", "no mercy", "scattered"

 

[StanJ]

The result is that we observe certain Church Holy Days, among them Pentecost, Christmas, Pascha, and so forth, and by this term observe, we do not mean perceive, but the day is taken off from work and we have a special service for that event in the Church calendar... Paul mentions making it to a Church for Pentecost... Those are Holy Days... And these days we call them holidays, because we look forward to not working that day... While forgetting its basis...

And we also have the noun "Observances"... And all of these entail the setting aside of time for the doing of whatever the observance entails... So that the term 'observe' here has been built up in its meaning by Church usage in the ekklesiastical calendar...

But when one does a word study, the term translated by the gloss observance turns out to mean very specific and detailed obedience to the commandments of Christ which He had given to the Apostles... eg it involves a specific praxis of doing things exactly as prescribed... And that prescription is not specified in the Bible, but is delegated to the Apostles for its discipling in the Body of Christ.

So that when one examines the Christian Churches of the first thousand years, one finds a uniformity of praxis that defies another accounting than the one given here... Same calendar, for instance, and same daily cycle of prayers and services, same Communion Services, and on and on... The early Church was One... As the Body of Christ is one... And yes, there were schisms... But not many, and only on a single issue, and even here, some 1500 years later, the Services of the Oriental and the Eastern Orthodox are vvirtually identical... Differences are all very local... But they all started out with the same commandments... Snf they all have the same services and practices and structures of worship...

So that 'observe' is a fair gloss, but needs opening to get the meaning...

Arsenios

You do have a tendency to yank words out of their original context in your analogies. I personally have no problem with the rendering or understanding of 'observe' in the original text. I am fairly confident that the translators used what is very functionally equivalent to the language of that day, as they translated it today.

 

[Arsenios]

You do have a tendency to yank words out of their original context in your analogies. I personally have no problem with the rendering or understanding of 'observe' in the original text. I am fairly confident that the translators used what is very functionally equivalent to the language of that day, as they translated it today.

OK -

So then WHAT, exactly, ARE
ALL these THINGS
that Christ commanded?

And ...

How do you 'observe' them?

A

 

[StanJ]

OK -
So then WHAT, exactly, ARE
ALL these THINGS
that Christ commanded?
And ...
How do you 'observe' them?
A

You'll need to be a tad more explanatory and give me the exact scripture you want to deal with.

 

[Arsenios]

You'll need to be a tad more explanatory and give me the exact scripture you want to deal with.

Forgive me!

Maybe that is our disconnect...

I have understood this whole line to have been about Matthew 28:18-20 but especially the verb τηρειν in 28:20 which you are saying that you prefer the common English translational gloss "observe"...

I have been arguing that this term means "wholesale, exact and
precise obedience across the board" to ALL the commandments of Christ in that passage... And you have been preferring it to mean 'observe'...

So my question became: What ARE ALL these 'commandments of Christ', and how is it that you 'observe' them? [Or that anyone else reading this passage might 'observe' them?]

I have been arguing in favor of doing a word-study of the Greek verb tereo, and you have been arguing in favor of Protestant scholarship in selecting the common glosses, and especially 'observe'...

We are simply interpreting the same Greek word differently...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Rom 11:13-14 KJV For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (14) If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
​

Sounds like Paul is writing to Gentiles to me. Paul calls his kinsmen in the flesh "them".

Paul moves seamlessly between Jews and Gentiles in his words

BECAUSE

He is writing to the Church in Rome

AND

There is a problem between Jews and Gentiles WITHIN the Church

BECAUSE

Paul is writing as a Pastor in Romans

IN ORDER THAT

He heal the issue caused by the Jews.


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You'll need to be a tad more explanatory and give me the exact scripture you want to deal with.

It was your failure to engage that gave me cause to ask what you have against that term...

You just did it again here, unless you got sick or something, but at any rate, it (your failure to engage) helped me to REMEMBER why I challenged you in your "observe" gloss in the passage of the Greek verb τηρέω...

Forgive me for being such a lame brain by forgetting...

I am told it only will further deteriorate...

Arsenios

 

[j4jesus09]

On another thread I said that the tenth chapter of the epistle to the Romans was written to believers.

In response, glorydaz said this:

"You SHALL BE SAVED" rules out your claim this is written to believers.​

Here is the verse which she was making reference:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Ro.10:8-9).​

When we examine the "context" we can see that Paul was merely telling the believers what he preached to the unsaved:

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Ro.10:8-9).​

He is telling these believers what he preaches to the unsaved--"the word of faith which we preach." After all, this epistles is written to those who already believe, as witnessed by what Paul said about their faith:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Ro.1:8).​

Not only that, after Paul explained what He preached to the unbelievers He then calls unbelievers "they" which he would not do if his words are being addressed to unbelievers:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Ro.10:14).​

If this chapter was addressed to unbelievers then it would read:

"How then shall you call on him in whom you have not believed? and how shall you believe in him of whom you have not heard? and how shall you hear without a preacher?"​

That is not what Paul wrote so it is obvious that He was not addressing the unsaved.

And if the tenth chapter is addressed to unbelievers then the whole epistle is meant for unbelievers. Or else you would have to tear out the tenth chapter and give it to the unbelievers. So it cannot be denied that if glorydaz is correct then Romans is written to unbelievers even though only one chapter of that epistle applies to them.

However, none of what is said in the epistle to the Romans is addressed to unbelievers.

Chapter 10 is talking specifically to the"brethern" believers about unbelieving Israel. There were believers already at that time who have heard about the resurrection and that Jesus was the Messiah. This is who Paul was writing to in Rome. Believers. In that time you still had a fight between the old covenant and new covenant. Israel had a zeal for God but not according to knowledge it says in verse 2. So Paul makes a declaration if you will that if they will confess that Jesus is Lord then they will be saved just like others. I don't believe Israel to this day will confess that and that is needed for salvation.